Suicide

[ala]

Originally Posted by orangejello

You are projecting and reading things into my post that I never said or inferred.

Then I stand corrected on your account. I hope we are both around for a long time, so we can befriend each other and maybe torment each other...just a little bit.

[Tiger Racing]

Originally Posted by orangejello

The bottom line is one can't truly know what emotional and/or physical pain or burdens another person lives with.

So we literally have to walk in another man's shoes in order to know them? So, every man is an island? How do you form any connections in your life if you truly believe this? If you can't know someone's pain, you can't know their joy either. That kind of disconnect would be horribly lonely. I can't imagine living that way.

Stigmatizing it so that people feel ashamed, weak, or selfish for considering suicide is not only not helpful, it's just wrong.

And who exactly is doing that here? Please quote directly from a post that you feel is labeling anyone "weak" or attempting to make anyone feel "ashamed". Ala certainly hasn't. I think his recent posts are well thought out and show a lot of compassion even though I disagree with his absolute conclusion (that suicide is always wrong).

I think the only person who has recently used the term "selfish" in reference to suicide in this thread is someone who was actually contemplating it themselves. He was referring to his own thoughts and actions, not generalizing about what anyone else might do. I hope you aren't casting his post in a negative light. That would be rather ironic.

You are projecting and reading things into my post that I never said or inferred.

That's definitely ironic. You think he's projecting? Well, then why don't you clarify what you're trying to say here? You seem to think that any talk about suicide being a bad decision is somehow condemning people, so what is your answer if it isn't to accept suicide as an option for everyone?

C.

[Steven Edwards]

Originally Posted by ala

So your answer is to make suicide socially acceptable by default?

Ponder me this, ponder me that...

One day, science will have progressed to the point that humans can live for centuries or more. When that day arrives, suicide will be one of the few ways to die.

At that point, won't suicide be socially acceptable by default? For population control, if no other reason?

[orangejello]

Originally Posted by Tiger Racing

So we literally have to walk in another man's shoes in order to know them? So, every man is an island? How do you form any connections in your life if you truly believe this? If you can't know someone's pain, you can't know their joy either. That kind of disconnect would be horribly lonely. I can't imagine living that way.


And who exactly is doing that here? Please quote directly from a post that you feel is labeling anyone "weak" or attempting to make anyone feel "ashamed". Ala certainly hasn't. I think his recent posts are well thought out and show a lot of compassion even though I disagree with his absolute conclusion (that suicide is always wrong).

I think the only person who has recently used the term "selfish" in reference to suicide in this thread is someone who was actually contemplating it themselves. He was referring to his own thoughts and actions, not generalizing about what anyone else might do. I hope you aren't casting his post in a negative light. That would be rather ironic.


That's definitely ironic. You think he's projecting? Well, then why don't you clarify what you're trying to say here? You seem to think that any talk about suicide being a bad decision is somehow condemning people, so what is your answer if it isn't to accept suicide as an option for everyone?

C.

**yawn**

the parsing and snipping and ripping-out-of-context is getting old, Tiger Racing. Find a new MO

[adi chicago]

Originally Posted by Steven Edwards

The thing about suicide (when it's related to SCI) is that choosing that method forfeits the life you will have post-whatever-treatment-restores-function to us.

Most of us here have 20, 30, 40, even 50 or more years ahead of us. Looking at it rationally, is it worth it to give up on those years of life with increased function we'll have?

By all logic, at least one treatment that restores some degree of function should have been shown to be effective by the end of 2012 (if not sooner). Why give up now?

resistant bugs will kill us [uti`s ,bladder cancer]or pressure sores ...remember how chris reeve died having money and the best care....sorry if i sound pesimistic after 6years of injury and a oeg procedure done.

[Steven Edwards]

Originally Posted by adi chicago

resistant bugs will kill us [uti`s ,bladder cancer]or pressure sores ...remember how chris reeve died having money and the best care....sorry if i sound pesimistic after 6years of injury and a oeg procedure done.

If a bug kills us, that's not suicide. (Unless we are aware and choose not to treat it.)

Back to the question, why give up now?

[ala]

It might be useful to define what suicide means. Part of the problem is that the meaning of “taking” one’s own life is most likely a moving target depending on mores, norms, and beliefs, so all I can do is define what I think it means to me.

Obviously a person with relatively good health, meaning their body can sustain life without any extraordinary methods or technology, would have to kill him/herself in order to end their life. This would have to be done through some life ending process like poison, a weapon, a traumatic act, or neglect. I’m relatively sure that this would be considered suicide my most people and societies, but perhaps not by all religions or belief systems. Good thing those religions and systems are in the minority.

I am not talking about assisted death, but is it suicide to allow oneself to die because you are too old or sick to be helped? Some would say that it is wrong to resign yourself and just give up; you are not a fighter. Others would say you understand that it is wrong to cling greedily to life but better to die with dignity and pass onto the reward of the afterlife where eternity reigns. Neither sounds like suicide to me.

Please be aware that what I am going to say next is treading on dangerous ground. But is it wrong for someone whose life is solely supported by drugs or machines to demand that they be allowed to turn those machines off or stop taking those drugs? This I don’t know the answer to, not for everyone. Keep in mind that these technological supports may be temporary or transitional, and that changes the perspective; that changes everything. Many religions and beliefs would say that God doesn’t demand that we live-on solely by the grace of technology. God naturally tells us when it’s time to stop grasping for more life because our spiritual life is paramount.

So as you can see, sometimes the definition of suicide is not so easy to define for everyone. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to help, nor does it mean that we should not continue to judge what that definition really means and the consequences of those meanings in the lives of each one of us and the ones we love.

[ala]

Originally Posted by Steven Edwards

Ponder me this, ponder me that...

One day, science will have progressed to the point that humans can live for centuries or more. When that day arrives, suicide will be one of the few ways to die.

At that point, won't suicide be socially acceptable by default? For population control, if no other reason?

Wow, thanks for whacking me over the head with that big fat philosophical club that is the future.

I don’t know the answer to that question, but I hope that future, when it arrives, isn’t as difficult to resolve as it sounds.

I am glad to hear Adi and others say they haven't given up.

[Le Type Français]

Originally Posted by Tiger Racing

So we literally have to walk in another man's shoes in order to know them? So, every man is an island? How do you form any connections in your life if you truly believe this? If you can't know someone's pain, you can't know their joy either. That kind of disconnect would be horribly lonely. I can't imagine living that way.

C.

That's not what she said. Of course, we can get to know other people, but we don't truly know their complete dynamics unless we've been through their entire experience. How well do we truly know our family and friends? Do you know every thought and emotion your husband has? Do you know for certain he holds no secret in him? How many times have people completely misjudged someone who turns out to be a sociopath?

[Le Type Français]

If you don't agree with suicide, don't do it. Don't judge another who chooses to do so. It's their life, not yours.