Religion and the Creation of Life

Steven Edwards · 03-04-2003, 12:44 PM

Our community is made up of many different people, many different places, and many different beliefs. I am hoping someone reading this will be able to help.

Are you aware of any religion that dictates when a life is ... a life?

-Steven

~Patrick~ · 03-04-2003, 02:01 PM

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.Jer 1:4

Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got
..........Janis Joplin

michaelm · 03-04-2003, 02:29 PM

Pat
I was going to post the same scripture.

Steven Edwards · 03-04-2003, 02:56 PM

Good! So we have Christianity. Are there any others?

Good job, guys.

-Steven

Sue Pendleton · 03-04-2003, 11:03 PM

The Mormons when the life line appears in the blastocsyt making it an embryo. So about 14 days. Orthodox Jews go by either the crowning at birth or the "quickening" when the fetus first moves and is felt by the woman carrying it. I believe Muslims count the 40th day. Not sure of the reason.

This particular Pagan believes when the fetus is reasonably viable outside the womb. Going back as far as I can find in my history texts, it seems that infants that were stillborn (going by size) were considered life and buried with the same attention to details as adults.

Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

Acid · 03-05-2003, 02:20 AM

"The Mormons when the life line appears in the blastocsyt making it an embryo. So about 14 days." Interesting, as the neural tube in human embryos is supposed to form around the 16th day, and around the 18th the brain starting, if I recall right.

"I believe Muslims count the 40th day. Not sure of the reason." Already by the end of the first month there are several differing brain systems.
I have been wondering when the hardware correlates of own I are starting to form out, but I don't know.

If I ever find out, I might be rather curious to hold it against these 40 days, if by then I still recall.

Concerning life more general, I believe a Germanic religion teaches about a sort of chasm with a cluster of something in there, that gets reached by Surt or fire Earth power, and that being the source of life.
The Old God(esse)s are comming from the Ocean.

It might be interpreted as the Earth crust being not that thick yet and Earth quakes making chasms with chemical layers, and from volcanoes lava going in there, and more complex chemical structures forming, that eventually made the base for life.
That the Old Goddesses and Gods are from the Ocean, and later some go to land to live with the New God(esse)s, and a lot remain in the water, might be regarded symbolic for life development on Earth. That the older are from the ocean, and some go to land.

Among the symbols of life is Yggdrasil (die Weltesche), the Tree of Life.
At one of its roots is the Real of Death.

Yggdrasil seems symbolic that trees as humans are parts of the branches of life.

So neither with first life coming to be (that is not some "creation", but seeming regarded like what today some might call a chemical process), nor with the Tree of Life there is a special singularizing out of humans.

I am not familiar from Germanic religion with any particular time where an embryo is regarded a human. I assume they were glad, if a woman survived the birth, and if the family made it through the hard winters in the north, and not many chilren died early, but a lot reaching adulthood.
Apart from that Germanic religion has been highly flexibly, and is so till these days, and therefore to set too strict rules alike "soandSO it has to be for all", including days with developing young humans, seems to offend against basic concepts of flexibility and adaptability of the Germanic religion that are fundamental to it.

Steven Edwards · 03-05-2003, 02:37 PM

Thanks Sue!

The Mormon and Muslim dates are fantastic! I'm thinking that the fact that there are differing specific dates makes the decision a religious one, and therefore the government cannot make a law preventing the killing of a so-called "innocent life" because when life begins is a religious matter.

Although I'm sure this approach has been tried in Roe v Wade... W. Justin Martin, larwatson, any ideas?

-Steven

dogger · 03-06-2003, 04:51 AM

Pat and Michaelm , i am a non believer and the last thing i want to do is start a religious argument . i asume this is the text you refer to , Jeremiah 1:4-10 ? quote , '' 4 The LORD gave me a message. He said, 5 "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world." 6 "O Sovereign LORD," I said, "I can't speak for you! I'm too young!" 7 "Don't say that," the LORD replied, "for you must go wherever I send you and say whatever I tell you. 8 And don't be afraid of the people, for I will be with you and take care of you. I, the LORD, have spoken!" 9 Then the LORD touched my mouth and said, "See, I have put my words in your mouth! 10 Today I appoint you to stand up against nations and kingdoms. You are to uproot some and tear them down, to destroy and overthrow them. You are to build others up and plant them." unquote .

to my unreligious mind this sounds like some kind of immaculate conception ? i find it difficult to believe many people think the lord forms a child in a mothers womb nowdays . most people would agree that comes about from some pleasureable exertions involving the mother and father of the child ?

thank you
dogger

every day i wake up is a good one .

Free · 03-06-2003, 08:03 AM

BTW, these verses are from the Jewish Torah and represent an orthydox Judeo-Christian POV. Immaculate conception is not at all intended. It is merely that we believe that God has a plan for everyone from the point of conception. Jeremiah was appointed to perform this service while he was still in the womb. This is one of the primary scriptures we Christians use to oppose abortion. To think that God knows us from the earliest stage of life is mind-boggling, but affirmative of His love for us.

-scott- · 03-06-2003, 08:25 AM

Dogger -

I can't steer your beliefs, nor do I intend to, but for those of us who do believe in the Lord, it's ludicrous to deny His involvement in the creation of life.

in the passage you quoted, here's a bit more depth to it...

verse 5: God knew you, as he knew Jeremiah, long before you were born/conceived. Essentially this is the Lord telling Jeremiah, "look, I've got a plan for you. You are valuable to me, and you do have a purpose."

verses 6-8: often we struggle w/ new challenges b/c we lack self-confidence, feeling inadequate, etc. Jeremiah felt this as well... thinking he was "only a child" or "too young" to go with the intentions the Lord had for him to head out into the world. The Lord definitely understood his feelings, yet took it a step further and promised to always be with him. I think what this is getting at is the fact that yes, we can feel pretty inadequate in some situations (SCI, for example), but we need to realize that God is bigger than that. If we believe He has a plan for us, we should also believe He'll provide all we need for it.

hope this helped a little. You're right about children coming from sex between a mother & father... this isn't directly what this passage is saying. I believe the Lord is involved in the intricasies of our lives, starting with the whole conception process, but still using people for that.

peace.

03-04-2003, 12:44 PM	#1
Steven Edwards Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Acme Labs Posts: 15,530	Religion and the Creation of Life Our community is made up of many different people, many different places, and many different beliefs. I am hoping someone reading this will be able to help. Are you aware of any religion that dictates when a life is ... a life? -Steven

03-05-2003, 02:20 AM	#6
Acid Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Berlin Posts: 1,779	Comments "The Mormons when the life line appears in the blastocsyt making it an embryo. So about 14 days." Interesting, as the neural tube in human embryos is supposed to form around the 16th day, and around the 18th the brain starting, if I recall right. "I believe Muslims count the 40th day. Not sure of the reason." Already by the end of the first month there are several differing brain systems. I have been wondering when the hardware correlates of own I are starting to form out, but I don't know. If I ever find out, I might be rather curious to hold it against these 40 days, if by then I still recall. Concerning life more general, I believe a Germanic religion teaches about a sort of chasm with a cluster of something in there, that gets reached by Surt or fire Earth power, and that being the source of life. The Old God(esse)s are comming from the Ocean. It might be interpreted as the Earth crust being not that thick yet and Earth quakes making chasms with chemical layers, and from volcanoes lava going in there, and more complex chemical structures forming, that eventually made the base for life. That the Old Goddesses and Gods are from the Ocean, and later some go to land to live with the New God(esse)s, and a lot remain in the water, might be regarded symbolic for life development on Earth. That the older are from the ocean, and some go to land. Among the symbols of life is Yggdrasil (die Weltesche), the Tree of Life. At one of its roots is the Real of Death. Yggdrasil seems symbolic that trees as humans are parts of the branches of life. So neither with first life coming to be (that is not some "creation", but seeming regarded like what today some might call a chemical process), nor with the Tree of Life there is a special singularizing out of humans. I am not familiar from Germanic religion with any particular time where an embryo is regarded a human. I assume they were glad, if a woman survived the birth, and if the family made it through the hard winters in the north, and not many chilren died early, but a lot reaching adulthood. Apart from that Germanic religion has been highly flexibly, and is so till these days, and therefore to set too strict rules alike "soandSO it has to be for all", including days with developing young humans, seems to offend against basic concepts of flexibility and adaptability of the Germanic religion that are fundamental to it.

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03-04-2003, 02:01 PM	#2
~Patrick~ Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Lewistown,Pennsylvania Posts: 1,517	"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.Jer 1:4 Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got ..........Janis Joplin

03-04-2003, 02:29 PM	#3
michaelm Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: montville nj usa Posts: 1,136	Pat I was going to post the same scripture.

03-04-2003, 02:56 PM	#4
Steven Edwards Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Acme Labs Posts: 15,530	Good! So we have Christianity. Are there any others? Good job, guys. -Steven

03-04-2003, 11:03 PM	#5
Sue Pendleton Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 9,112	The Mormons when the life line appears in the blastocsyt making it an embryo. So about 14 days. Orthodox Jews go by either the crowning at birth or the "quickening" when the fetus first moves and is felt by the woman carrying it. I believe Muslims count the 40th day. Not sure of the reason. This particular Pagan believes when the fetus is reasonably viable outside the womb. Going back as far as I can find in my history texts, it seems that infants that were stillborn (going by size) were considered life and buried with the same attention to details as adults. Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

03-05-2003, 02:37 PM	#7
Steven Edwards Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Acme Labs Posts: 15,530	Thanks Sue! The Mormon and Muslim dates are fantastic! I'm thinking that the fact that there are differing specific dates makes the decision a religious one, and therefore the government cannot make a law preventing the killing of a so-called "innocent life" because when life begins is a religious matter. Although I'm sure this approach has been tried in Roe v Wade... W. Justin Martin, larwatson, any ideas? -Steven

03-06-2003, 04:51 AM	#8
dogger Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mitchell , Qld. Australia Posts: 2,239	Pat and Michaelm , i am a non believer and the last thing i want to do is start a religious argument . i asume this is the text you refer to , Jeremiah 1:4-10 ? quote , '' 4 The LORD gave me a message. He said, 5 "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world." 6 "O Sovereign LORD," I said, "I can't speak for you! I'm too young!" 7 "Don't say that," the LORD replied, "for you must go wherever I send you and say whatever I tell you. 8 And don't be afraid of the people, for I will be with you and take care of you. I, the LORD, have spoken!" 9 Then the LORD touched my mouth and said, "See, I have put my words in your mouth! 10 Today I appoint you to stand up against nations and kingdoms. You are to uproot some and tear them down, to destroy and overthrow them. You are to build others up and plant them." unquote . to my unreligious mind this sounds like some kind of immaculate conception ? i find it difficult to believe many people think the lord forms a child in a mothers womb nowdays . most people would agree that comes about from some pleasureable exertions involving the mother and father of the child ? thank you dogger every day i wake up is a good one .

03-06-2003, 08:03 AM	#9
Free Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 191	BTW, these verses are from the Jewish Torah and represent an orthydox Judeo-Christian POV. Immaculate conception is not at all intended. It is merely that we believe that God has a plan for everyone from the point of conception. Jeremiah was appointed to perform this service while he was still in the womb. This is one of the primary scriptures we Christians use to oppose abortion. To think that God knows us from the earliest stage of life is mind-boggling, but affirmative of His love for us.

03-06-2003, 08:25 AM	#10
-scott- Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Harrisonburg, VA Posts: 9,529	Dogger - I can't steer your beliefs, nor do I intend to, but for those of us who do believe in the Lord, it's ludicrous to deny His involvement in the creation of life. in the passage you quoted, here's a bit more depth to it... verse 5: God knew you, as he knew Jeremiah, long before you were born/conceived. Essentially this is the Lord telling Jeremiah, "look, I've got a plan for you. You are valuable to me, and you do have a purpose." verses 6-8: often we struggle w/ new challenges b/c we lack self-confidence, feeling inadequate, etc. Jeremiah felt this as well... thinking he was "only a child" or "too young" to go with the intentions the Lord had for him to head out into the world. The Lord definitely understood his feelings, yet took it a step further and promised to always be with him. I think what this is getting at is the fact that yes, we can feel pretty inadequate in some situations (SCI, for example), but we need to realize that God is bigger than that. If we believe He has a plan for us, we should also believe He'll provide all we need for it. hope this helped a little. You're right about children coming from sex between a mother & father... this isn't directly what this passage is saying. I believe the Lord is involved in the intricasies of our lives, starting with the whole conception process, but still using people for that. peace.