Pics/remarks of Icon?

[JeffAdams]

On the dustcap issue - I just got off the phone with an engineer at FrogLegs, and one thing that I hope everyone understands is that a dustcap is only that. It does not prevent moisture or grime from coming in contact with the bearings. There is no (or should be no real) concern about damage to the bearings from environmental elements. The bearings are sealed for that reason.

The dustcaps that come on other manufacturers chairs are only for aesthetics - they serve no functional purpose - this is according to the engineer at FrogLegs that I just spoke to, and confirms our opinion.

Froglegs does not provide dustcaps on their metric version of unitine forks, and in fact they are not even available - they are only available in the SAE version of the product - there is no reason for this, beyond the fact that (according to them) none of the manufacturers who use the metric version has ever asked for dustcaps before.

Having said that, I understand the aesthetic issue, and agree that it looks nicer/better/more finished with a dustcap. We're doing a design review in the next few weeks, so I'll put that on the list of things to discuss - it should be an easy fix, and like everything, we'll make sure that it can be retrofitted.

I'm actually kind of happy that one of the issues sparking debate is over a small fit and finish issue - to be candid, the bulk of our attention has been on the functionality of the chair, and some of the fit and finish details will now start to get the attention they deserve as we go though our design review process.

@Texas - I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but I have to tell you that there are good and bad dealers in every industry. We're trying our best to sign good dealers who are service-oriented and customer-friendly. I struck out a couple times at Marvel, and am trying hard to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Part of the difficulty is because of the funding models that make some dealers the only game in town, which is tough if not impossible for us to really affect as a small manufacturer.

One of the main things is that we will not entertain any exclusive arrangements - hopefully having an option will spark some amount of effort, and at some point in the future, we'll have the ability to point out how the good behavior of our high quality dealers is actually a business advantage. We'll also have the option to cut off dealers who behave badly.

As DaleB pointed out, we have been soliciting advice on good DME's, and are listening to that advice. We're getting a lot of direct inquiries about the Icon, and one of the first (and most important) questions I ask is if the person making the inquiry has a preferred DME that we can work with.

We're also going to do what we can to create a "want to buy" market - I see customers and clinicians playing important roles in this - if clinicians can be convinced of the benefits of the Icon, that will make a big difference in what gets "pushed" by dealers.

We're doing what we can - at this point it's pretty limited, and I know we're not going to change the world in a day, but we will do what we can, when we can, and however we can.

This includes making dustcaps standard equipment, putting a shock pump on the order form, as well as rewarding good dealers, but most of all, putting the customer first in everything we do.

[TexasWheelz]

I just want to say that I understand it's still getting off the ground, most of that was just more of an explanation to my previous post that Grommet asked for. The rest was just more shit that starts rattling around in the brain when I start typing.

Just being on these boards and answering and asking for more questions is a huge improvement over the other companies, I can only hope it continues or you are eventually able to hire some press people to do it for you that care as much or at least some what for the company as you do yourself. It was nice when Ti had a rep on here last year, but I believe he got over whelmed and decided to leave, although I'm betting he still lurks.

I do have a worry though again when you say "We're trying our best to sign good dealers who are service-oriented and customer-friendly." Regardless of what they present themselves as it doesn't mean it will ring true. Again I realize things are just getting off the ground, but personally I'd rather see the chair available at every single DME, that way I get to choose. I'm sure when the company that got the Texas area for Marvel was picked you or whomever thought that they were a customer-friendly service-oriented dealer or you wouldn't have used them. Unfortunately for me that turned out to be none of that and for the sake of the product I just don't want to see that sort of thing happen again.

[JeffAdams]

Totally - our priority goes to DME's that are service oriented and customer-friendly (and that are recommended to us by users) - I know that it doesn't guarantee anything, but making an effort is better than not.

We will open pretty much any DME for exactly the reason you state - to give the user the option to go to anyone that they feel most comfortable with/get the best service from.

We have a few requirements (store front/service area etc), but beyond that, it's up to the user to tell us who they want to buy from, and we'll work with that DME 100%.

[grommet]

Originally Posted by TexasWheelz

K, I'll try and explain it better, but I've been known to talk in circles and make things worse before as well as just drone on and on and on...........

When they came out with the Marvel as Jeff said they signed some exclusive deals with certain dealers or "dealer networks" in certain areas. The one and only one that I was aware of that could sell them in Texas (still the only ones I believe), had several locations across the state, like 1 in Houston, 1 in Austin, 1 in DFW...etc. So to see a demo you had to go do that DME or you weren't going to see one.

Well I spent 2 months talking to the exclusive dealer here in the DFW area trying to set up a appointment to come see the Demo and give it a push or two, they knew what day and what time I was coming. When I showed up they had to find the chair, even though they had this huge show room floor with probably 50 different demo chairs they didn't have the Marvel out. When they did bring it out both tires were almost flat and when I asked them to air the tires up they took it to the back and brought it back with maybe 50-60 PSI. Rolling around on flat tires makes it hard to get a feel for it. I had let them know several times what my measurements were and they said they would have it adjusted for me, that didn't happen and they weren't for sure how to adjust it correctly when I got there. The also couldn't find the transfer bars that it came with as that was one of the big things I wanted to see/test before I was going to get a new chair. The "salesman" kept trying to get me to try out the Q7 they had there and had zero knowledge of the Marvel and didn't seem to care to even try and sell one.

So I bought a ZR2 elsewhere... whether I liked the Marvel or not at that point I was not going to get that DME a dime and it was the only one in the area I could purchase a Marvel from. Why give my money to the DME who didn't deserve it even if I wanted to support Jeff and Marvel? They would be rewarding the DME for a complete and total failure in doing their job.

So this goes back to my previous post, a DME has little incentive to sell you something that isn't going to make them the biggest bang for the buck. Unlike a bike shop, car dealership or a electronics store where people are paying for their purchase themselves and if they don't like one salesman or shop they can go around the corner to the next, we are stuck in that shop we don't like if they are the only one peddling the product we wish to purchase. If they'd rather sell you a crappy product with a much higher mark up instead of the product you want and like then what is the chance of getting any good service from them? If you aren't paying yourself then there is even less chance of them helping you get something that they are going to make less $ on. Why work hard and do a lot of paper work for insurance on a product that they may or may not purchase when you know they will purchase something much cheaper but with a higher mark up and it will take you a lot less paper work.

So that goes back to the "extras" Jeff says that hopefully these dealers will throw in. If they don't care to sell you the product in the first place, what the hell is going to make them throw in free "extras"? The only way that this would ever happen in this industry is if we had the option to leave that shop and go to another one around the corner to purchase the same thing. Then they would do more to get your business as they aren't the sole dealer in the area.

So it's just wishful thinking in my opinion, the wheelchair market will never be anywhere near the same or comparable to the industries Jeff mentioned. One is a want buy and the other is a need buy.

I'd much rather see them (ICON) ask us (the users) where we prefer to get our equipment from, what DME's we think would be a good fit or at least give a shit about their customers and then they contact them about selling the ICON. Or better yet, put it out there so that any of the DME's have the ability to sell it, but instead of relying on them to be the peddler, hire some users to peddle their wares for them. Who's more likely to show their chair off, a guy using it daily or a able body guy who really doesn't know the difference between one chair and the next.

Look at Toto for example and his push of the Oracing. I'd bet he has brought them a good amount of sales because he knows what he's talking about. I wouldn't have known about them if not for him as I'm sure most of us wouldn't being that most of us are in the US. I can tell you that if money wasn't an issue for me that I would have already ordered one of them. If it was some Joe Blow who never uses a chair other then to sit in at some Expo I can assure you that I wouldn't have given the Oracing chair a 2nd thought. Wanna revolutionize the chair then also revolutionize the way they are sold.

What sells those bikes/cars/electronics the most? Seeing others using them, Seeing Jenny from the block driving around her old block in that new Fiat every damn time I turn on the TV these days. Lets see some people in the ICON. If you go to a big wheelchair basketball tourney you should see the top player in a ICON when he isn't on the court. Same goes for Rugby, Tennis, Racing...etc. There are a couple of big events here in DFW every year that brings out hundreds of chair users that isn't an expo. They're for disabled people to get out and see what they are capable of. There is water skiing, kayaking, jet skiing, hand cycling, zip lining, rock crawling...etc. Sponsor an event or 50 like that throughout the year, show up, set up a booth and show off. So far out of the ones I've went to over the last 5 years (put on by two different organizations so twice a year) only Ti has shown up to do that. Sure there has been a DME or two there with demo's of all kinds of chairs, but more people talk to the actual Ti guy then they do the DME's "salesmen". I mean I live in the Dallas area, one of the largest populated area's in North America these days, it's a warm climate, there are a lot of chair users. I've seen one Marvel and if I wasn't a member of this board I wouldn't know about it. Same goes for the ICON, if I wasn't a member here I wouldn't know about it, granted it just started shipping, but to get the word out it has to be seen. It doesn't matter if I'm (not me specifically, just in general) setting around with 20 other chair users talking about how great this chair on the internet is, they are going to ask me why I'm not in one or why can't they go and see one unless they wanna see the pictures online like I have.

Texas, wow thanks for the great explanation. It was paingful hearing about your experience with the DME and Marvel because I've been through that so many times myself. I have never experienced such disrespect. My frustrations with DME's unfortunately are so deep and painful I just usually go straight to 'hate' when I think of them or talk about them. They absolutely know, IMO, they have us by the genitals.

I agree with you about individuals being the ones to promote equipment - the users know. I would never steer someone who is disabled wrong about a product I've used. I know what the right equipment means. My life whole life depends on equipment. With the right stuff, I have less pain, I can go more places, live life more. Everything is better. With the wrong stuff it's the opposite. I've been through that too.

God I wish the products and services for disabled people were better. Most of the time I just wish the came close to decent. There are some good companies. Tilite makes excellent chairs. I've been through a lot with my TR and it's so outstanding, I frequently notice all over again just how great it is. But it's limited by it's technology. It's too heavy for me, isn't suspended and I can't adjust it other than the COG and it's too much work to really make changes there.

I believe in ICON but I haven't had one under my butt for a whole day or a week or month. I haven't lived with it yet. I need the wider wing being worked on. I am concerned about protecting the frame in places and figure I'll need to add ABS plastic to armour places. I am also concerned about the exposed areas at the bearings. I noticed that at the show and mentioned it. What really has me going for the ICON is two things. One, I tried it at the show even taking it outside. I know chairs, I saw what it could do. I want that chair. Second: Jeff and Christian. I completely trust them. It's not some weird blind faith. I have talked with them, spent some time together. I doubt there's a millimeter of the ICON they haven gone over a dozen times. They are chair users. For the first time in my epxerience, the guys I'm buying from know everything I do. They have been there. DMEs look at me like I'm invisible or a dog turd. Jeff and Christian look at you like it they who are going to be in your ICON.

I'm done, ready to go all in. I just need to fit the ICON front end and I'm living a better life in my new chair. If I like it, I will tell everyone I can about it. Seeling the chairs will be my hobby because I know how much difference there can be for some one when they get the right stuff and the best stuff. I ride Spinergy LX wheels and while I think the folks at Spinergy are well .. I do not like them. They are great wheels and have improved my life. I won't go on here about companies I don't like but someone asked about getting the Round Betty Dinos. I wouldn't buy another Round Betty product, but that's me. They aren't bad but it was a waste of my money getting them and not going straight for the Spinergy's.

So thanks for the explanation. No thank you for the miserable story with the DME and the ICON - hit too close to home. I've had such misery with DME's that I've given up and am spending thousands of dollars of my own to avoid the insurance nightmare and a DME who wants to treat me like, well, how they treat all their customers. Btw I am open to the possibility that there is are good DME's out there. I have very little belief I will encounter one before in my lifetime.

I'll have my ICON soon and I hope it all works out. Even if it doesn't I don't regret a thing. I've followed my best thinking, best instincts and heart while checking the ICON out. It's been a privilidge to meet Jeff and Christian in person and actually be there while something like this is being done. They're giving everything they have to make this work and even better than that, as rare as it happens, I think they've succeeded. They've made an outstanding product that will change lives and I hope even the industry.

On that last thought. To anyone thinking that can't happen, learn about Marilyn Hamilton. When she made her first chairs then started Quickie the entire industry changed. E&J nearly went out of business because they didn't follow the new trend. Invacare played catch up. Okay, I think I just got up on my accessible soap box ;-)

[juggular]

Originally Posted by SCI_OTR

Thanks for the review juggular!

Just curious, do you notice any difference in the chair's tracking with the your casters being swept that far back and having that much inset relative to the rear wheels. How about stability when leaning forward?

Attachment 43294

The Icon is a great tool for determining how changing a single aspect of a frame's configuration can affect the overall dynamics of a wheelchair. It makes it easy to study one variable while keeping everything else constant.

Haven't noticed any difference in tracking. Went down a few ramps full speed any she went straight. That's the factory setting. No issues with stability leaning forward. 3" dump and heavy rims might have some play in that thought.

[jschism]

Originally Posted by DaleB

The distance from the footplate to the crossbar, measured parallel to the ground, is something I want to understand better. I trend toward needing more, not less, of my foot on the footplate for stable lower legs.More details would be quite welcome on this!

I didn't put any padding on my crossbar, just kept adjusting till it felt right and didn't have any more problems. here ya go on the measurements.
and one for those who think it would look better with a dust cap on the FL.
I should mention those are dust caps I stole from an old set of FL's, just so people don't started asking Icon for them, they were in my parts supply.

[stephen212]

Originally Posted by JeffAdams

Froglegs does not provide dustcaps on their metric version of unitine forks, and in fact they are not even available - they are only available in the SAE version of the product - there is no reason for this, beyond the fact that (according to them) none of the manufacturers who use the metric version has ever asked for dustcaps before.

Frog Legs goofed up (then corrected) my order for the Unitines that I have on my ZR2 sending instead a set of Unitines intended for Quickies, which don't have dust caps. However, the Quickie caster barrel design covers the exposed bearings, so the dust cap is not included. That's the reason FL leaves them off the Quickie version but includes them for the TiLite/Top End models.

[DaleB]

Originally Posted by jschism

I didn't put any padding on my crossbar, just kept adjusting till it felt right and didn't have any more problems. here ya go on the measurements.
and one for those who think it would look better with a dust cap on the FL.
I should mention those are dust caps I stole from an old set of FL's, just so people don't started asking Icon for them, they were in my parts supply.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

[stephen212]

Originally Posted by DaleB

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

If it's at all meaningful to you as a reference, the footrest on my Halls chair is 7.75" deep and the center of the "calf bar" tubing is 12" deep measured from the front edge of the footrest. I typically place my feet pretty deep into the footrest -- I prefer being "tucked under" -- and my legs never make contact with the tubing.

[chasmengr]

(FYI, this is a wonderful thread - very educational and heart warming (except for the DME horror stories). I just wanted to say thank you to all you guys.)