NINTS - Blow by Blow - Page 4

mk99 · 11-01-2002, 11:45 AM

Dr. Young thanks for the updates. Encouraging but also frustrating as usual.

Earlier you wrote this about OEG cell transplants:

"At least half a dozen laboratories have now reported that these cells will facilitate functional neural regeneration when transplanted into the brain or spinal cord (Almudena Ramon-Cueto, Geoffrey Raisman, Mary Bunge, Giles Plant, Jeff Kocsis, J. Lu and colleagues)."

Were these studies not convincing enough? Don't get me wrong I'm glad Honmou found the same thing... again. And yet some people are still not convinced. How many times must something be repeated before it becomes more acceptable? And why must these people be convinced of anything? There are still people today that believe the earth is flat and nobody wastes effort trying to convince them otherwise.

" For example, Dalton Dietrich asked how Honmou was certain that the remyelination was not from Schwann cells that have migrated into the site."

It's a legitimate quesion but I gotta ask... what is with the obsessive fixation on Schwann cells from Miami Project?

Leo · 11-01-2002, 12:02 PM

Wise, In reading this thread it sounds like scientist are to concerned about to many details. I don't care if it's the OEG or maybe due to Schwan, etc. If it works it works thats all that matters to me. Do we need to know all the whys before the U.S. will goto clinicals? Lets roll the dice now.

Leo

Duran · 11-01-2002, 12:02 PM

You're right, Dr. Young.

Jeff, thanks again.

Joe

andrew · 11-01-2002, 07:13 PM

Sounds like the NINTS conference was very successful and worthwhile.

Reading some of the posts, some people think the process of regeneration of the spinal cord is as simple as LEGO. There is no roadmap to tell us the way and as much as I want to go ahead at full speed with every piece of news, I realise it won't happen overnight. I wish it would and with people like DA and v it may. Keep up the good work. Stay on the soapbox DA (nothing happens without people like you) and I will join you in my own way.
Andrew

Wise Young · 11-02-2002, 10:42 AM

Thanks, Andrew and Push 2005.

Leo, scientists are paid to be critical and skeptical, so that the information that you get from research is reliable. They are and should be worry warts, so that you can have access to the best information possible. They are not the ones who decides whether a treatment goes to clinical trial. Many scientists would love to see the treatments that they are studying go to clinical trial. Most of the time, the decision is not up to them. It is really up to funding agencies, companies, and clinicians who carry out the clinical trials.

DA, you know well what obstacles scientists meet when trying to educate clinicians. As I was telling Leo above, scientists are seldom the ones who make the decision concerning the clinical application of their therapies. Whether a treatment goes to trial or not depend on a myriad of variables that are outside of their control. The job of scientists is to make sure that the data is solid and reliable.

Unfortunately, few scientists and clinicians come to this site because this site contains information that are more up-to-date than what is published in the journals. I was surprised that many clinicians and scientists did not know about the OEG trials in Brisbane and Lisbon but perhaps I should not be because none of the this information has been published. It is true that we, on this site, are better informed and learn about these trials and developments often months before professionals in the field do.

Wise.

Wise Young · 11-02-2002, 11:58 AM

Mike K,

The OEG studies have not been convincing to some people in the field for the following reasons:

1. Almudena Ramon-Cueto's studies involved transected cords and many of the animals did not recover weight-supported locomotion.

2. Geoffrey Raisman's studies involved selective lesion of the corticospinal tract and restoration of forelimb function in relatively few animals.

3. Lu's study did not, in the opinion of many scientists, demonstrate that the recovery is due to OEG. It may have been due to stem cells in the nasal mucosa.

Regarding the Schwann cell business, there has been a lot of controversy whether or not the OEG cells actually myelinate. Giles Plant in Australia tried to get the OEG to myelinate axons and were unable to do so. Kocsis and Honmou have been able to do so but the question is whether the implanted cells are doing it or whether other cells such as Schwann cells or oligodendroglia precursors are doing it.

Wise.

Duran · 11-02-2002, 01:06 PM

Dr. Young, I am puzzled how you are talking about OEG and its perspective after that long time. How then you could hope in them to get into clinical trial within 1999?

Early this year I watched one channel that is called Spektrum (an analogy to Discovery Channel) and saw "just completing" monkey experiments of Dr. Kocsis from Alexion. I wish you were hearing the interview with him. He was so mouthful of clinical trials being imminent in that time. As if there has been existing nothing but Alexion in the SCI world. Should there have been arisen some difficulties in their research why they didn't go with it out? Were they afraid of their stocks? As you sure knew they've been announcing the initiation of clinical studies since 1999 - year after year. I am asking: where are they today? Finally, they can't lose more than they have lost. I doubt there will be a big interest in porcine OEG as other centers offers an autologous transplants yet.

Joe

Wise Young · 11-02-2002, 02:00 PM

push, I was trying to describe to Mike why others are skeptical. I am less skeptical. While I agree that clinical trials should go ahead, I think that it is really important that the animal studies continue to so that we can optimize the therapy. If the trials fail, we need to know why. Even if they improve function, we need to find out how to make it better.

I believe that the OEG's are likely to be part of the cure. I really don't understand what is going on with Alexion. I hope that they are not getting cold feet because of the enormous progress that has occurred with adult OEG homografts, nasal mucosa, and OEG from fetal olfactory bulbs.

Wise.

DA · 11-02-2002, 04:35 PM

dr young a few years ago we had the oeg vs schwann cell debate. then a report came out about oeg tightly wrapping axons several times over. was that a lie?
who report is true? how do we find the truth vs the lies?

dr young read your post over. did you not describe the clincians as spoiled rotten lazy kids with very hard heads?

mk99 · 11-02-2002, 06:00 PM

thanks again Dr. Young.

I would like to better understand the thought process behind scientic thought process, mantra, etc. Any particular place you could point me to? So much of it just doesn't make any sense to me at all... it seems so unnecessarily drawn out, self serving and to be honest, cruel & immoral to those suffering who are not being helped but could be. It sure looks like impressing your peers & getting published is more important than solving the actual problem & stopping human misery & suffering.

Any books you can recommend to help me understand this cause I just don't get it. I can undersand people motivated by money or people who want a solution to a problem... but I don't understand this mindset at all.

"Lu's study did not, in the opinion of many scientists, demonstrate that the recovery is due to OEG. It may have been due to stem cells in the nasal mucosa".

Nasal Mucosa contains different cells: OEG, stem, etc, etc. Sounds like a pretty good combo therapy to me... If one really MUST know if it's the OEG or the stem cells here is a simple experiment that should sort this out:

group A -> nasal mucosa
group B -> OEG isolated from nasal mucosa
group C -> OEG isolated from olfactory bulb
group D -> placebo.

11-01-2002, 07:13 PM	#34
andrew Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Newcastle, Australia Posts: 741	Great info Wise Sounds like the NINTS conference was very successful and worthwhile. Reading some of the posts, some people think the process of regeneration of the spinal cord is as simple as LEGO. There is no roadmap to tell us the way and as much as I want to go ahead at full speed with every piece of news, I realise it won't happen overnight. I wish it would and with people like DA and v it may. Keep up the good work. Stay on the soapbox DA (nothing happens without people like you) and I will join you in my own way. Andrew

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11-01-2002, 11:45 AM	#31
mk99 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: toronto, canada Posts: 3,494	Dr. Young thanks for the updates. Encouraging but also frustrating as usual. Earlier you wrote this about OEG cell transplants: "At least half a dozen laboratories have now reported that these cells will facilitate functional neural regeneration when transplanted into the brain or spinal cord (Almudena Ramon-Cueto, Geoffrey Raisman, Mary Bunge, Giles Plant, Jeff Kocsis, J. Lu and colleagues)." Were these studies not convincing enough? Don't get me wrong I'm glad Honmou found the same thing... again. And yet some people are still not convinced. How many times must something be repeated before it becomes more acceptable? And why must these people be convinced of anything? There are still people today that believe the earth is flat and nobody wastes effort trying to convince them otherwise. " For example, Dalton Dietrich asked how Honmou was certain that the remyelination was not from Schwann cells that have migrated into the site." It's a legitimate quesion but I gotta ask... what is with the obsessive fixation on Schwann cells from Miami Project?

11-01-2002, 12:02 PM	#32
Leo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Yankton, South Dakota Posts: 3,951	Wise, In reading this thread it sounds like scientist are to concerned about to many details. I don't care if it's the OEG or maybe due to Schwan, etc. If it works it works thats all that matters to me. Do we need to know all the whys before the U.S. will goto clinicals? Lets roll the dice now. Leo

11-01-2002, 12:02 PM	#33
Duran Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Maximum security prison, Death row Posts: 441	You're right, Dr. Young. Jeff, thanks again. Joe

11-02-2002, 10:42 AM	#35
Wise Young Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: New Brunswick, NJ, USA Posts: 37,988	Thanks, Andrew and Push 2005. Leo, scientists are paid to be critical and skeptical, so that the information that you get from research is reliable. They are and should be worry warts, so that you can have access to the best information possible. They are not the ones who decides whether a treatment goes to clinical trial. Many scientists would love to see the treatments that they are studying go to clinical trial. Most of the time, the decision is not up to them. It is really up to funding agencies, companies, and clinicians who carry out the clinical trials. DA, you know well what obstacles scientists meet when trying to educate clinicians. As I was telling Leo above, scientists are seldom the ones who make the decision concerning the clinical application of their therapies. Whether a treatment goes to trial or not depend on a myriad of variables that are outside of their control. The job of scientists is to make sure that the data is solid and reliable. Unfortunately, few scientists and clinicians come to this site because this site contains information that are more up-to-date than what is published in the journals. I was surprised that many clinicians and scientists did not know about the OEG trials in Brisbane and Lisbon but perhaps I should not be because none of the this information has been published. It is true that we, on this site, are better informed and learn about these trials and developments often months before professionals in the field do. Wise.

11-02-2002, 11:58 AM	#36
Wise Young Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: New Brunswick, NJ, USA Posts: 37,988	Mike K, The OEG studies have not been convincing to some people in the field for the following reasons: 1. Almudena Ramon-Cueto's studies involved transected cords and many of the animals did not recover weight-supported locomotion. 2. Geoffrey Raisman's studies involved selective lesion of the corticospinal tract and restoration of forelimb function in relatively few animals. 3. Lu's study did not, in the opinion of many scientists, demonstrate that the recovery is due to OEG. It may have been due to stem cells in the nasal mucosa. Regarding the Schwann cell business, there has been a lot of controversy whether or not the OEG cells actually myelinate. Giles Plant in Australia tried to get the OEG to myelinate axons and were unable to do so. Kocsis and Honmou have been able to do so but the question is whether the implanted cells are doing it or whether other cells such as Schwann cells or oligodendroglia precursors are doing it. Wise.

11-02-2002, 01:06 PM	#37
Duran Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Maximum security prison, Death row Posts: 441	Dr. Young, I am puzzled how you are talking about OEG and its perspective after that long time. How then you could hope in them to get into clinical trial within 1999? Early this year I watched one channel that is called Spektrum (an analogy to Discovery Channel) and saw "just completing" monkey experiments of Dr. Kocsis from Alexion. I wish you were hearing the interview with him. He was so mouthful of clinical trials being imminent in that time. As if there has been existing nothing but Alexion in the SCI world. Should there have been arisen some difficulties in their research why they didn't go with it out? Were they afraid of their stocks? As you sure knew they've been announcing the initiation of clinical studies since 1999 - year after year. I am asking: where are they today? Finally, they can't lose more than they have lost. I doubt there will be a big interest in porcine OEG as other centers offers an autologous transplants yet. Joe

11-02-2002, 02:00 PM	#38
Wise Young Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: New Brunswick, NJ, USA Posts: 37,988	push, I was trying to describe to Mike why others are skeptical. I am less skeptical. While I agree that clinical trials should go ahead, I think that it is really important that the animal studies continue to so that we can optimize the therapy. If the trials fail, we need to know why. Even if they improve function, we need to find out how to make it better. I believe that the OEG's are likely to be part of the cure. I really don't understand what is going on with Alexion. I hope that they are not getting cold feet because of the enormous progress that has occurred with adult OEG homografts, nasal mucosa, and OEG from fetal olfactory bulbs. Wise.

11-02-2002, 04:35 PM	#39
DA Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: beaumont tx usa Posts: 32,390	dr young a few years ago we had the oeg vs schwann cell debate. then a report came out about oeg tightly wrapping axons several times over. was that a lie? who report is true? how do we find the truth vs the lies? dr young read your post over. did you not describe the clincians as spoiled rotten lazy kids with very hard heads?

11-02-2002, 06:00 PM	#40
mk99 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: toronto, canada Posts: 3,494	thanks again Dr. Young. I would like to better understand the thought process behind scientic thought process, mantra, etc. Any particular place you could point me to? So much of it just doesn't make any sense to me at all... it seems so unnecessarily drawn out, self serving and to be honest, cruel & immoral to those suffering who are not being helped but could be. It sure looks like impressing your peers & getting published is more important than solving the actual problem & stopping human misery & suffering. Any books you can recommend to help me understand this cause I just don't get it. I can undersand people motivated by money or people who want a solution to a problem... but I don't understand this mindset at all. "Lu's study did not, in the opinion of many scientists, demonstrate that the recovery is due to OEG. It may have been due to stem cells in the nasal mucosa". Nasal Mucosa contains different cells: OEG, stem, etc, etc. Sounds like a pretty good combo therapy to me... If one really MUST know if it's the OEG or the stem cells here is a simple experiment that should sort this out: group A -> nasal mucosa group B -> OEG isolated from nasal mucosa group C -> OEG isolated from olfactory bulb group D -> placebo.