my pc

[westom]

Originally Posted by brucec

the first paragragh contradicts don't it? ...

the second paragragh,,, usually the ground and neutral are both grounded in the panel, so in sense, you have two wires earthed, right?

... are you suggesting she have a electircian come out and rewire her whole house, or just add better grounding?

OK. Don't confuse safety ground with earth ground. Earth ground is rods at least 8 feet long. Five feet are too short - a code violation. Other requirements include its material and separation between two rods. Code also permits other electrodes including one pioneered in muntions dumps to make direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Ufer ground.

Irrelevant whether safety ground and neutral meet. Three AC wires enter from the street. Any or all carry surges. The neutral is (should be) earthed. But another two connect lightning strikes from down the street directly into household appliances. Those wires also must be earthed. Otherwise a house has no effective protection. Even power strip protectors would be at risk.

Makes no differenece whether a house is 1930 wires or 2010 wires. Proteciton is about energy entering the building. Not about wires inside. A 'whole house' protector must be sized large enough to connect even direct lightning strikes (or other equivalent surges) to earth without damage. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector selling for $50 in Lowes is 50,000 amps.

20,000 amps also says why a bare solid copper, quarter inch wire from the breaker box to ground rods must not go up over the foundation and down to earth. Too long. Too close to other non-grounding wires. Too many sharp bends. Best to go through the foundation and down to earth. Shorter, no sharp bends, etc. Additional requirements for surge protection not required by safety codes. Protection is performed at a service entrance; no interior wire changes necessary.

That means earthing must both meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements.

Incoming telephone lines already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free. But again, it also must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to those same earthing electrodes. Important is for every incoming wire (including underground wires) to connect short to single point earth ground before entering a buillding. 'Single point' is also important.

Connected directly via wire (ie cable TV) or via a protector (AC electic, telephone). Any incoming cable not properly earthed means a surge is inside hunting for earth destructivly via appliances. Protection is always about electrical conductors that would carry destructive energy inside a building. Protection is always about energy dissipated harmlessly outside. No interior wire changes are necessary or relevant.

And finally, no protector does protection. How to make any protector better? Expand / enhance the single point earthing. A protector is only as effective as the other item that does protection - single point earth ground. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.

[Mona~on~wheels]

Originally Posted by westom

Most people will recommend that protector for same reasons why most also knew Saddam had WMDs. They ignore every number. Let's discuss 645 joules.

Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that protector use? 215 and never more than 430. Near zero protection. And just enough so that most everyone will believe it is 100% protection. A majority let their eyes glaze over with each number. Why my father so enjoyed advertising. They (the so easily scammed) make lying so easy, profitable, and fun.

The most naïve among use will ignore that 645 joules to all but want to be scammed.

A protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground can make computer damage easier. All appliances have superior protection. Anything an adjacent protector might do is already done better inside each appliance. But a protector too close can bypass that protection. Connect a surge directly to the motherboard. Those are your symptoms.

You have seen what plug-in protectors do to leave so many appliances damaged. At what point does 100 years of well proven science get anyone’s attention? You have repeat damage because those protectors did what their specifications said it would do.

For over 100 years, every reliable facility (that can never have damage) earths a 'whole house' protector. Protection means a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. So energy remains outside. Energy permitted inside a building hunts for earth destructively via TVs and computers. Anyone educated only by advertising are only learning about 100 years of well proven science for the first time. An overwhelming majority are routinely manipulated by advertising myths.

Your telco's switching computer connects to overhead wires all over town. Connects to phones is every other building. Therefore suffers typically 100 surges with each thunderstorm. That means no phone service anywhere in town for four days? Of course not. Telcos never waste money on power strip protectors (or that UPS that also has near zero joules). Telcos even 100 years ago earthed 'whole house' protectors. Then 100 surges cause no damage. The science is that well proven. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – which your power strip protectors do not have.

Informed homeowners earth 'whole house' protectors from responsible companies including ABB, General Electric, Intermatic, Square D, Keison, Leviton, or Siemens. A Cutler-Hammer version sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Anyone with over 100 power strip protectors and no ‘whole house’ protector has near zero protection.

Ineffective protectors have names such as Belkin, Panamax, APC, or Tripplite. Take a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $25 or $60 because so many even ignore those near zero numbers. Profits are more important. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling a same product for even higher profits. If Monster is also selling it, then the word scam applies. Monster sells a similar product for $80 or $150. A majority all but invite those less responsible companies to scam them. Ignore over 100 years of well proven science. Let a high school educated salesman become their ‘expert’.

No protector does protection. Not one. 'Whole house' protector was effective even 100 years ago because it connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the only item that does protection. Single point earth ground. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always. No exceptions. True long before anyone here existed. Either energy is destructively inside hunting for earth via appliances. Or you earth a surge via a 'whole house' protector. Protection means no energy inside the building.

Facilities that must never have damage always earth 'whole house' protectors. Or do munitions dumps always explode with each thunderstorm? Of course not. The technology is that well proven. Proper earthing of a 'whole house protector means direct lightning strikes without damage even to the protector. Bottom line fact from 100 years of well proven science. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which ineffective protectors will not discuss.

Your repeat damage says no ‘whole house’ protector with earthing that both meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical code. How do those 645 joules do any protection? It doesn’t once eyes stop glazing over.

I hope you weren't talking to me? Thst is so over my head. lol

Looks like Bruce understood. But I do NOT understand anything electrical.
But thanks anyway.

Bruce I'll see if I can find that cable.


Thanks PN!

[westom]

Originally Posted by Mona~on~wheels

I hope you weren't talking to me? Thst is so over my head.

Concepts are what was taught in elementary school science about Franklin's lightning rod.

Surges seek earth ground. Either you all but invite surges to find earth destructively via your appliances. Or earth one 'whole house' protector so that energy is not inside the house. Why is that complex?

Either you do nothing. Therefore let energy go hunting destructively inside. Or you earth a 'whole house' protector so that energy never enters. So that energy dissipates harmlessly outside. Only you make that choice.

Why is it complex? Because it is a first time you heard it. If like me, then anything this new is never understood until at least a third reread. Only complex if you do not want to know. Or if you let salesman teach you.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. No different than Franklin's lightning rods. A protector (just like a lightning rod) is only as effective as its earth ground.

[Mona~on~wheels]

Originally Posted by westom

Only complex if you do not want to know.

You've never met me but know so much about me.

[sjean423]

Mona, I think i'd stick to the advice from the members I know ..... not sure where our resident expert came from, but this is the only place he has posted.

[brucec]

Originally Posted by sjean423

Mona, I think i'd stick to the advice from the members I know ..... not sure where our resident expert came from, but this is the only place he has posted.

he's probably already a member, just posting under a different name, either way, he brough alot of good tips up, it's hard for me to believe buying a house house ground from lowes for 50 bucks, I won't have any more damaged electrical equipment. I will look into though, he does make sense, but i'll keep my ups/surge protectors hooked up for now

[westom]

Originally Posted by brucec

it's hard for me to believe buying a house house ground from lowes for 50 bucks, I won't have any more damaged electrical equipment.

A 'whole house' protector connected short to earth is how lightning damage is averted in literally every reliable facility including cell phone towers and nuclear hardened communication centers. A picture in this application note demonstrates how it was always done. Two structures. Each must have its own single point earth ground. Any wire that enters each structure must first connect to that earth ground:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

Even underground wires must not enter without that short as possible ground connection.

How does your telco's computer, connected to overhead wires all over town, operate without damage during every thunderstorm? According to 1950s Bell System Journal papers, a CO suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. Why no damage? Telcos all over the world use protectors that actually do protection. Protectors connected as short as possible to earth. Your telco even installs one for free where their phone wires meet yours. Don’t take my word for it. View it.

Power strip protectors create other problems demonstrated by scary pictures:
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339
Included is a fire marshal describing why these fires happen. Another shows all protector parts removed; its light says that protector is still OK.

You do not buy ground in Lowes. First, earthing (ie 10 foot earth ground rods) must both meet and exceed 1990 National Electrical code. Second, other wires not connected directly to ground (ie telephone, AC electric) connect via a 'whole house' protector. Buy the protector – not ground.

A Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells for less than $50 in Lowes or Home Depot. That is not protection. That is only a connecting device to what does protection - earth ground.

What happens too often when plug-in protectors are not protected by one 'whole house' protector? Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in "The Power Outage" describes the danger:
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable man pulled
> a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire. The granddaughter
> on the computer yelled and ran because sparks and smoke were coming from the
> power surge strip.

Hard facts, numbers, the concepts, and professional citations have far more credibility than any friend. If a power strip protector does protection, then someone can post each number that defines that protection. Good luck. No power strip claims protection from any typically destructive surge. No matter how many close friends recommend it, the spec numbers still do not exist. No numbers because no power strip claims effective protection. Power strips are a perfect example of how advertising so easily manipulates.

Most people also believed Saddam had WMDs. Well proven by so many close friends saying it was true. How did that 'truth' work out? Facts and numbers said WMDs did not exist. Which had more credibility? Hearsay from friends? Or facts and numbers? Important and well proven is 100 years of science. How many operators died when lightning killed them through their headsets? Again, 100 years of well proven science.

Meanwhile, worry about a protector on a desktop of papers, on the rug, or behind some furniture. Protectors that are grossly undersized can create scary pictures. Another item that is protected only by earthing one 'whole house' protector. A reality not known if your information comes from advertising and spin. Or from close friends.

Buy the protector in Lowes. Connect that protector short to single point earth ground.

[brucec]

thanks for the links, sure will look into, and i mis=spoke earlier, my friend had to click on a ladder to start hammering the ground rod into the ground, so it was longer than 5 foot
I will take the time to read all the links and stuff and see if i can't improve my house

[PN]

I decided to do a Google search for "whole house surge protectors." I found a whole home search protector on Amazon but they are currently out of stock. The customer reviews were very good.

[westom]

Originally Posted by Mona~on~wheels

You've never met me but know so much about me.

I know you posted this:

I had power surgers on all. Did no good. {confused}

I explained why you had so much damage while using plug-in protectors. And why you should have expected that damage. Or need I quote Dr Martzloff? His IEEE paper says why protectors too close to appliances can even make damage easier. You saw what happens. I explain why damage occurs. You would dispute me? You even saw what power strip protectors do.

Meanwhile, above is irrelevant to your original problem. Much of what you were advised would not solve that problem. From what I read, would only cure symptoms. Did you know your computer has a power controller that decides how, if, and when power can be turned on or off? It even decides when to let a computer's CPU execute. Your symptoms say either that controller is defective. Or is getting an input that tells it to power cycle your machine. Most do not even know that controller exist. For the same reason they would recommend a power strip protectors only because of advertising.

I don't just tell someone what to do. To me, that is lying. I also provide the many reasons why. 'Why' is necessary to have honesty. Those who advise without the 'whys', to me, are quickly suspect. Which says you probably don't know me. Or anyone like me. I know an awful lot about this stuff. If you thought my last posts were long, wait till you read the many suggestions for solving that power off problem.

If your computer is from a better manufacturer, then it comes with comprehensive hardware diagnostics. On the hard drive. On a provided CD. And on the manufacturer's web site. Diagnostics find a problem long before you open, disconnect, or change anything. Also view system (event) logs. Windows finds problems, records them, then works around them. So that you can address problems at your convenience. Inspect those logs? If any number makes no sense, post it. Numbers that make least sense are often the most important to others who know this stuff.

I don't say it could be this or might be that. On CSI, they say, "Follow the evidence." That means getting facts before fixing or changing anything.

I believe you posted backwards. Should have posted that you do not know me. A sentence that also explains why you could have expected damage using plug-in protectors. 100 years of well proven science is not what most people are told to believe. Most people also do not understand what is meant by "Follow the evidence".

Provided was how to end all that damage. Also provided is where to start to eliminate power cycling (assuming that problem still exists).