Chondroitinase ABC

James Kelly · 05-24-2002, 04:43 PM

Does anyone have the Bradbury full text article on chondroitinase ABC? I'm curious how long post injury they waited before adminstering the treatment; what type of injury model they used; and why did they use the electric shock to kickstart the cord after treatment. I noticed the Australian group that did the OEG work did the same thing.

[This message was edited by James Kelly on May 24, 2002 at 07:58 PM.]

[This message was edited by James Kelly on May 24, 2002 at 07:58 PM.]

Wise Young · 05-24-2002, 09:42 PM

James, look in the research forum. I just attached the file.
http://carecure.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36791

James Kelly · 05-25-2002, 08:27 AM

Dr. Young:

Thank you for directing me to the proper link. The Lars Olsen commentary was informative. Do you have any comment regarding the use of electrical stimulation to initiate post-synaptic activity in cortico-spinal neurons after Chase treatment?

James Kelly

Sue Pendleton · 05-26-2002, 09:21 PM

"Do you have any comment regarding the use of electrical stimulation to initiate post-synaptic activity in cortico-spinal neurons after Chase treatment?"

Hmmm If I were Wise my comment would be, "bite me!" But then I have a mean streak when it comes to idiots who blame others for falling asleep at the wheel...

And now after a break from our sponsor, Prozac...

Wise Young · 05-26-2002, 11:09 PM

Jim, I think that your question is probably best posed to Rich Borgens at Purdue. Wise.

Scientific devil's advocate · 06-15-2002, 07:48 AM

When SCI researchers report regrowth of injured fibres in animal models of SCI, the question always arises "were those fibres capable of conducting useful impulses?". Electrophysiological stimulation is one method of checking this. Often small glass microelectrodes are inserted into the cord (e.g. above a lesion) and very low (physiological-size) impulses are given. Further down the fibre (eg the other side of the lesion) other electrodes are used to see if signals can be recorded. ie did the regrowing nerves carry impulses across the injury site.

This stimulation/recording should not be confused with high power "Electric Shocks" that you might have seen in movies like "One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest". To my knowledge there are no plans to shock SCI patients therapeutically!

Once again, the aim here with electrophysiology is to see whether the connections were usefully functional, not to act as a therapeutic measure.

James Kelly · 06-17-2002, 07:37 PM

Devil's Advocate:

Thank you for your clear explanation. I was curious about this because I've recently read in two studies that external electrical impulses were applied after regenerative treatment to initiate the resulting nerve fiber to begin transmitting neural signals. I was wondering what need this step was addressing?

Sue:

I didn't know Dr. Wise Young when I drove off the road, nor was he in the car, nor do I wish I ever had occasion to hear of him, which is understandable considering what brought him to my notice. I'm sure that many here would rather Patricia Morton had never invited me to Spinewire so long ago, as I've probably long overstayed my welcome. Certainly my honest and rationally supported opinions have.

But since you've opened a psychological can of personal worms, I feel compelled to speak my mind (a more compassionate man who wasn't hurt from the callous rejection of those he's sincerely trying to help would turn the page and go on with life). But I never claimed to be elevated or kind. So here's my take on you.

Your life took a nasty turn ten years ago. While you were laying in a hospital in Germany, your neurosurgeon uncle tracked you down. He demanded over the phone the German doctors give you Methylprednisolone, against their wishes. They finally relented and gave you MP far past the eight hour window that NASCIS had determined was safe for its usage. By the time you got it, the NIH had determined without a doubt that administering MP would cause more damagethan good. Yet you've steadily maintained that MP preserved what little functions you have, when twelve years of NIH clinical evidence says the reverse was almost certainly true...that late MP usage leads to LESS functional recovery and MORE infectious complications.

Whether you've the guts to face it, if anything your uncle made your paralysis worse by sticking his nose in where it didn't belong. He was 5 thousand miles from your ICU and he was NOT your doctor in attendance. Yet without knowing what he was doing (according to the NIH) he felt he had the right to tell others who (it turns out) knew exactly what should be done given the circumstances. (It seems to be a family failing.) Now for the past four years you've bitterly defended MP (and Dr. Young, the man largely responsible for its development) whenever I justifiably pointed out the failings of both.

Before you claim the actions of others are distorted by emotional baggage, take a look closer to home.

James Kelly

Carl R · 06-17-2002, 08:28 PM

James Kelly wrote ". . . my honest and rationally supported opinions have. "

I can't disagree with you on whether you believe your opinions are " honest ". But I will assume that the opinions are " rationally supported " by your ". . . Economics training at Penn State."

* * * I welcome your posts. The more you post, the more the likelihood of people finding out about just how rational your conclusions are and the credentials they are based on. Hell, I'll bet even Brownback himself would agree with only seeing your pictures and a whole lot less about the rationale behind your decisions.

Sue Pendleton · 06-18-2002, 07:06 AM

First, Jim, I apoligize for the personal attack on your unfortunant entry into this community. I know I was wrong and went back and pulled out the netiquette rules due to that. No one here asked me to, I did it on my own. If you missed my posting it is now in the Feedback Forum.

The only reason my Uncle became involved at all was that my husband, to me, seemed to be the one going into shock at the time. My parents had lost all 3 of my siblings when I was a teen and I didn't want a frightened and overwhelmed spouse scaring the hell out of my Dad that he was going to lose me too. I figured my Uncle could better explain what was happening and that I would wake up soon enough. He didn't track me down, I have a good memory and made my husband write his number down and call him and ask him to call my Dad first. From speaking to him later and/or (kind of fuzzy time for me) my husband speaking with him he just made sure that the Germans had tested for every possible cause of the paralysis because in 38 years of being a neurosurgeon he had never seen a spontaneous spinal infarct in anyone but the extreme elderly (due to artheriosclerosis I believe). His subspeciality is cerebral vasculature and not SCI although he's well acquainted with broken necks. If he had demanded the MP I would have gotten it in doses prescribed by NASCIC 3 and instead I got 2 grams over 24 hours and high doses for at least a week after that. A couple years later I developed a hole in the bone near my knee due to all the steroids. Happily it did not go malignant but filled in with healthy bone cells. To this day I have not heard of another incomplete SCI from ischemia. All I have heard of or met have been complete or have a small amount of sensation. Some whose infarcts were due to cross clamping during heart or spine surgery are incomplete but none of the spontaneous ones.

I was also pumped full of a few drugs not used in this country--anti-virals. I no longer have their names because Hopkins has managed to lose the chart those papers were on. But yes, probably due to my Uncle I was tested for all possible and some impossible causes of paralysis, clotting dosorders and bleeding disorders to include ebola and the hataviruses not to mention some weird one called the Russell Venom Viper test. And, yes, my Uncle did manage to keep my Dad from having a heart attack over my winding up unconscious and on life support for a week or more.

I do not defend Wise because of MP and its usage. I consider both Wise and Patricia Morton very good friends. My initial meeting with Wise was all about fund raising for cures and not neuroprotection. I don't blame anything or anyone but bad karma for what I refer to as the Taylor Family Curse (everyone in my family dies on Memorial Day weekend). Having talked to several with worse paralysis than mine I have consistantly said I wish I did know the cause of what happened to my spinal artery so I could blame myself for doing something stupid with my health or someone else for patting me one the back too hard. I hate not knowing the cause. But I do not blame anyone along the way about my fate short of an army doctor who over the phone said I'd be "fine" in a week and on whose words I decided to go along with being sedated and put on a vent. Now him I would like to meet someday with a baseball bat in my hand and show him what "fine" after a week really means!

Again, sorry, I was having a bad day, Jim. I don't agree on your ideas about therapeutic cloning but I doubt you got more help from anyone else on the Diapulse project you took on. Soupy

(editted for grammar and clarity)

[This message was edited by Sue Pendleton on Jun 19, 2002 at 12:07 AM.]

Chris Chappell · 06-18-2002, 01:37 PM

An off topic question(s).

Does your uncle still practice as a neurosurgeon? And if so, what does he think about the research? its progress? application? time frames?

Just curious because you have a unique resource in him.

Peace.

Onward and Upward!

05-24-2002, 04:43 PM	#1
James Kelly Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Granbury, Texas, USA Posts: 266	Chondroitinase ABC Does anyone have the Bradbury full text article on chondroitinase ABC? I'm curious how long post injury they waited before adminstering the treatment; what type of injury model they used; and why did they use the electric shock to kickstart the cord after treatment. I noticed the Australian group that did the OEG work did the same thing. [This message was edited by James Kelly on May 24, 2002 at 07:58 PM.] [This message was edited by James Kelly on May 24, 2002 at 07:58 PM.]

06-15-2002, 07:48 AM	#6
Scientific devil's advocate Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 21	A misunderstanding about electrophysiology When SCI researchers report regrowth of injured fibres in animal models of SCI, the question always arises "were those fibres capable of conducting useful impulses?". Electrophysiological stimulation is one method of checking this. Often small glass microelectrodes are inserted into the cord (e.g. above a lesion) and very low (physiological-size) impulses are given. Further down the fibre (eg the other side of the lesion) other electrodes are used to see if signals can be recorded. ie did the regrowing nerves carry impulses across the injury site. This stimulation/recording should not be confused with high power "Electric Shocks" that you might have seen in movies like "One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest". To my knowledge there are no plans to shock SCI patients therapeutically! Once again, the aim here with electrophysiology is to see whether the connections were usefully functional, not to act as a therapeutic measure.

06-18-2002, 01:37 PM	#10
Chris Chappell Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 7,035	Sue An off topic question(s). Does your uncle still practice as a neurosurgeon? And if so, what does he think about the research? its progress? application? time frames? Just curious because you have a unique resource in him. Peace. Onward and Upward!

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05-24-2002, 09:42 PM	#2
Wise Young Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: New Brunswick, NJ, USA Posts: 37,975	James, look in the research forum. I just attached the file. http://carecure.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36791

05-25-2002, 08:27 AM	#3
James Kelly Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Granbury, Texas, USA Posts: 266	Dr. Young: Thank you for directing me to the proper link. The Lars Olsen commentary was informative. Do you have any comment regarding the use of electrical stimulation to initiate post-synaptic activity in cortico-spinal neurons after Chase treatment? James Kelly

05-26-2002, 09:21 PM	#4
Sue Pendleton Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 9,117	"Do you have any comment regarding the use of electrical stimulation to initiate post-synaptic activity in cortico-spinal neurons after Chase treatment?" Hmmm If I were Wise my comment would be, "bite me!" But then I have a mean streak when it comes to idiots who blame others for falling asleep at the wheel... And now after a break from our sponsor, Prozac...

05-26-2002, 11:09 PM	#5
Wise Young Administrator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: New Brunswick, NJ, USA Posts: 37,975	Jim, I think that your question is probably best posed to Rich Borgens at Purdue. Wise.

06-17-2002, 07:37 PM	#7
James Kelly Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Granbury, Texas, USA Posts: 266	Devil's Advocate: Thank you for your clear explanation. I was curious about this because I've recently read in two studies that external electrical impulses were applied after regenerative treatment to initiate the resulting nerve fiber to begin transmitting neural signals. I was wondering what need this step was addressing? Sue: I didn't know Dr. Wise Young when I drove off the road, nor was he in the car, nor do I wish I ever had occasion to hear of him, which is understandable considering what brought him to my notice. I'm sure that many here would rather Patricia Morton had never invited me to Spinewire so long ago, as I've probably long overstayed my welcome. Certainly my honest and rationally supported opinions have. But since you've opened a psychological can of personal worms, I feel compelled to speak my mind (a more compassionate man who wasn't hurt from the callous rejection of those he's sincerely trying to help would turn the page and go on with life). But I never claimed to be elevated or kind. So here's my take on you. Your life took a nasty turn ten years ago. While you were laying in a hospital in Germany, your neurosurgeon uncle tracked you down. He demanded over the phone the German doctors give you Methylprednisolone, against their wishes. They finally relented and gave you MP far past the eight hour window that NASCIS had determined was safe for its usage. By the time you got it, the NIH had determined without a doubt that administering MP would cause more damagethan good. Yet you've steadily maintained that MP preserved what little functions you have, when twelve years of NIH clinical evidence says the reverse was almost certainly true...that late MP usage leads to LESS functional recovery and MORE infectious complications. Whether you've the guts to face it, if anything your uncle made your paralysis worse by sticking his nose in where it didn't belong. He was 5 thousand miles from your ICU and he was NOT your doctor in attendance. Yet without knowing what he was doing (according to the NIH) he felt he had the right to tell others who (it turns out) knew exactly what should be done given the circumstances. (It seems to be a family failing.) Now for the past four years you've bitterly defended MP (and Dr. Young, the man largely responsible for its development) whenever I justifiably pointed out the failings of both. Before you claim the actions of others are distorted by emotional baggage, take a look closer to home. James Kelly

06-17-2002, 08:28 PM	#8
Carl R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Houston, Tx. USA Posts: 1,888	James Kelly wrote ". . . my honest and rationally supported opinions have. " I can't disagree with you on whether you believe your opinions are " honest ". But I will assume that the opinions are " rationally supported " by your ". . . Economics training at Penn State." * * * I welcome your posts. The more you post, the more the likelihood of people finding out about just how rational your conclusions are and the credentials they are based on. Hell, I'll bet even Brownback himself would agree with only seeing your pictures and a whole lot less about the rationale behind your decisions.

06-18-2002, 07:06 AM	#9
Sue Pendleton Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 9,117	First, Jim, I apoligize for the personal attack on your unfortunant entry into this community. I know I was wrong and went back and pulled out the netiquette rules due to that. No one here asked me to, I did it on my own. If you missed my posting it is now in the Feedback Forum. The only reason my Uncle became involved at all was that my husband, to me, seemed to be the one going into shock at the time. My parents had lost all 3 of my siblings when I was a teen and I didn't want a frightened and overwhelmed spouse scaring the hell out of my Dad that he was going to lose me too. I figured my Uncle could better explain what was happening and that I would wake up soon enough. He didn't track me down, I have a good memory and made my husband write his number down and call him and ask him to call my Dad first. From speaking to him later and/or (kind of fuzzy time for me) my husband speaking with him he just made sure that the Germans had tested for every possible cause of the paralysis because in 38 years of being a neurosurgeon he had never seen a spontaneous spinal infarct in anyone but the extreme elderly (due to artheriosclerosis I believe). His subspeciality is cerebral vasculature and not SCI although he's well acquainted with broken necks. If he had demanded the MP I would have gotten it in doses prescribed by NASCIC 3 and instead I got 2 grams over 24 hours and high doses for at least a week after that. A couple years later I developed a hole in the bone near my knee due to all the steroids. Happily it did not go malignant but filled in with healthy bone cells. To this day I have not heard of another incomplete SCI from ischemia. All I have heard of or met have been complete or have a small amount of sensation. Some whose infarcts were due to cross clamping during heart or spine surgery are incomplete but none of the spontaneous ones. I was also pumped full of a few drugs not used in this country--anti-virals. I no longer have their names because Hopkins has managed to lose the chart those papers were on. But yes, probably due to my Uncle I was tested for all possible and some impossible causes of paralysis, clotting dosorders and bleeding disorders to include ebola and the hataviruses not to mention some weird one called the Russell Venom Viper test. And, yes, my Uncle did manage to keep my Dad from having a heart attack over my winding up unconscious and on life support for a week or more. I do not defend Wise because of MP and its usage. I consider both Wise and Patricia Morton very good friends. My initial meeting with Wise was all about fund raising for cures and not neuroprotection. I don't blame anything or anyone but bad karma for what I refer to as the Taylor Family Curse (everyone in my family dies on Memorial Day weekend). Having talked to several with worse paralysis than mine I have consistantly said I wish I did know the cause of what happened to my spinal artery so I could blame myself for doing something stupid with my health or someone else for patting me one the back too hard. I hate not knowing the cause. But I do not blame anyone along the way about my fate short of an army doctor who over the phone said I'd be "fine" in a week and on whose words I decided to go along with being sedated and put on a vent. Now him I would like to meet someday with a baseball bat in my hand and show him what "fine" after a week really means! Again, sorry, I was having a bad day, Jim. I don't agree on your ideas about therapeutic cloning but I doubt you got more help from anyone else on the Diapulse project you took on. Soupy (editted for grammar and clarity) [This message was edited by Sue Pendleton on Jun 19, 2002 at 12:07 AM.]