Another Muscle Chair--Invacare Torque SP Off-Pavement Configuration

[SCI_OTR]

Bodypoint extension tubes and a Quickie GT footplate.

[DaleB]

Somewhat OT, however, that's never slowed me down before...

...anyhoo...

...Ya know, I had a typically loquacious reply drafted to this thread, in which I extolled the virtues of SCI_OTR and his commitment to improving the quality of life for the folks under his care and guidance re: their seating. Then I popped up a new window in Safari, found a smiley in my archive I wanted to use, switched back, and it (the reply) was gone. I know, sh*t doesn't just disappear, so I did something inadvertent to destroy what I had written, bad me.

Needless to say, to make a long post short, I have a profound amount of respect for our good Mr. OTR, and what he does at the VA.

Thank you, Steven!

Originally Posted by SCI_OTR

I use the term "muscle chair" to describe a old school rearwheel drive powerchair that provides rigid frame like positioning, has a reasonably light weight, and enough power to do a wheelie and be driven off the beaten path.

Until now, I have limited the use of that term to the Quickie P222SE. It may come as a surprise to some that Invacare also makes a powerchair that meets the "muscle chair" criterion--the Torque SP equipped with the 6.5 MPH high-performance 4-Pole motor package...



Some of you may be thinking, "But the P222SE's top speed is 8.5 MPH, how can a model that is 2 MPH slower even be considered to be in the same class? The answer lies in an option that is not available on 3G Storm Series chairs equipped with more powerful gearless brushless motors--those monster 14x4" pneumatic knobby rear tires...





That wheel/tire combination provides the potential to transform the Torque SP into a legitimate muscle chair. While it might not be as fast, light, or nimble as a P222SE on paved surfaces. when properly dialed in, it can outperform a P222SE in those environments where traction and stability are a higher priority than how quickly one can get from point A to point B.

One has to be willing to accept a couple of trade offs in order to live with those wider tires. At ~27.5" wide, they add considerably to the chair's overall width--making the Torque borderline for some vehicle lifts/ramps. There is also one option that, inexplicably, is not available with these tires. Who can guess what is missing from either of these chairs?



While the P222SE has to do little more than roll off of the assembly line to achieve its muscle chair status, a Torque SP requires a little work. When it leaves the factory, the seat angle of the Torque SP provides minimal dump--giving it marginal ground clearance and providing less than optimal postural stability for off pavement adventures. The seat frame is also mounted on the base frame in a relatively forward position. This puts a significant proportion of weight over the front casters. Even under full throttle it will be difficult to get the front end to lift. While a front heavy chair may be good for driving up hills, it makes negotiation of obstacles difficult.

In order to attain the proper balance, the blue Torque was ordered with the Rear Wheel Forward 1" option and the seat was moved back farther on the base frame. Note the location of the rear wheel relative to the solid white line as well as the location of the front mounting bolt for the seat frame (yellow arrows).



The front-rigging hangers had to be telescoped out on the blue chair in order to maintain sufficient front caster clearance. Thus, while the overall length of both chairs is the same, the blue chair has considerably less weight over its front casters.

These adjustments have the same effect as changing the location of the rear axle on an ultralight rigid frame, and the result can be equally as dramatic. Compared to the red chair, the blue chair can easily do a controlled wheelie at relatively slow speeds. At the same time, it is much less-likely to tip back going up a grade or bottom out on rugged terrain than a P222SE. To ascend a 3-4" curb, one only needs to stop with the front caster at the curb, back up ~8", and give it full throttle forward. The front casters lift slowly up in the air as the chair's momentum changes back to a forward direction. The casters clear the curb while the rear drive wheels easily roll up and over in a very comfortable controlled fashion.

Like some other chairs I have recently posted, these Torque's have the custom fixed front frame. The reason for doing this will be discussed in my next post.

So which one is better, the Torque SP or the P222SE? It depends on what the end user needs to do with their chair.

[swannyriver]

2001 Arrow 3G Storm series with GB motors had a 4" wide tire option all the way around. I can't remember the tire diameter but they looked like a scooters tire [4x8, or 4x10]. It just fit on my vans 29" ramp.

[jakeyboy1]

I'm just a therapist with some mechanical skills and basic fabrication abilities who's job it is to prescribe and configure custom mobility equipment so that is optimal for the function of the end user. While I doubt GB motors are compatible with those hubs, I'll let jakeyboy cover these topics as they are more his area of expertise.[/QUOTE]

First off, SCI-OTR A+ as usual. You ought to look at the "cage front end" for the Torque next time. It is from the old Xterra. It is a "special" in the Invacare system.

Regarding the 14x4 tires with GB motors. It is possible. Invacare used to sell them as a option (10 years ago) It might be hard to find the hubs that will fit. I personally have modified a hub to fit with GB's. (I think) the reason they discontinued them is it made the chair very wide.

At one time I Frankensteined a really old Arrow with 8.5mph GB motors I modified 16" rear wheels to fit. Torque, turning speed, turning acceleration and forward speed at 100%.... I could drift sideways at 10mph on concrete.... Talk about a "muscle chair"....

[lance30276]

here is some pics of the 'chair i just finished.......
It's '04 torque sp with a motion concepts recline with fixed legrests....
all parts were found on ebay and craig's list......
i have 800.00 in it.......

[NWC4]

Thanks everyone for your posts!


Lance30276,

Where did you fine the 4" wheels to fit the G/B motors? Or are those 4 pole motors? Do you know the make and model?

Thanks!

[lance30276]

Originally Posted by NWC4

Thanks everyone for your posts!


Lance30276,

Where did you fine the 4" wheels to fit the G/B motors? Or are those 4 pole motors? Do you know the make and model?

Thanks!

that 'chair pictured has 4 pole motors, they're high performance motors from a '04 torque sp.....

my other camo chair has HD GB motors......i've seen some of the older GB motors on ebay that you could put the 14x4 wheels on but i wouldn't be able to fit on my ramp on my truck if i went that route......

[rollin' man]

@SCI_OTR & jakeyboy1

I think everyone on here knows that I have had a BounderPlus Classic. My last two chairs. With Medicare changes they're making it hard for me to repeat. Like Quickie222se, 646se, and Invacare Storm series.

Two questions. p
1. What are the main differences between Quickie222se and 646se?
2. What are the top configurations for Invacare Storm Series?

I am six feet and around 150 pounds. Love speed the mostly stay off road. My insurance company gets great deals on Sunrise and Invacare products. I usually just get a standard(if you can call a Bounderplus) chair. 16 by 16 seat.

If I have to get a Quickie or Invacare. I won't to get the top performer. It is the small details that I'm sure will get left out as I have to do most of the legwork. My insurance company's network as no one to do seating evaluation, not to mention little things like the foot rest and other things that would go unnoticed by someone who is there just to fill out the papers. Would love to see a copy of the order that you wrote for someone else. As then I would have something to go by. As you can tell I am pretty much lost when it comes to these chairs asked me something about Bounder and I can probably answer. But with these. I am lost. Would love some help to get the most high-performance chair available.

Thanks D Donnie i.e. - damn Dragon dictate

[jakeyboy1]

1. they look different. 222 has smaller wheels. (also the 646 is a "group 4" chair, typically doesn't get funded through medicare)
2. The Torque 3 is a 5.9mph group 3 chair. The Torque SP is the same chair except it has 6.5 mph motors, thus making it a group 4 chair. The fastest Invacare is a Arrow, which is the same as a Torque but with GB motors. 7mph

I suggest you find out which dealer works with your insurance company and go test drive all of the above.

Another thought, If you are driving off-road mostly and don't need a narrow base. Go with the Torque SP with 14x4 rear wheels.

[buegerman]

145/70 - 6 tyres (all terrain tubeless)
15 x 600 x 6 tyres (turf and kevlar reinforced and tubeless) are much better off road on soft surfaces like sand/mud etc. They run at low pressures and offer better comfort, have big sidewalls, and greater floatation/contact area.

Obviously these wont bolt straight on and are wider. I narrowed my own 2 chair designs to keep overall width down to 25.4 and 26.4 respectively, depending on tyres/wheels used. Front casters lightly loaded 300 x 4 (10 inch).

Just thought people may be interested.

Now old news chair, http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/ulti...powerchair.htm reliable and indoor/outdoor capable for a few years. 100 amps, lead (odyssey), 6mph, fast charge capable.

Newest one... 15 mph, 3000 watt hour 15 year life, 45 volt Lithium ion nano phosphate battery. 45 to 60 mile range, 150 amp (250 peak) per channel controller, etc etc. About to be rebuilt after all parts powder coated and polished. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-M...powerchair.htm + 5 more pages of info.

Wheelies at will, from any speed up to about 8 to 10 mph, so the casters miss that "rough bit" you just spotted...

Battery should last longer than the chair, and enough power to tear up the beach while walking the dog! And RC capable, datalogging built in, pc programming built in, fast charge and graphing of all parameters built in, charge in car or at home / and just 37 total inches long.

For your interest! Built by a paraplegic in a bedroom... Seriously. Its not difficult if you can tell others what to do!

Burgerman