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Thread: The multi-layered tragedy - opinions wanted!

  1. #41
    imo it has to do more with local laws ordinances than fairness. NYC area has proven through the trial and court systems that if you use a firearm outside your house , you will have a very hard time beating the rap, will almost always be charged , not that i agree with these laws. i am sure the punk white kid that initiated the mob attack tried to knock the handgun out or blindside/punch/overpower the homeowner.

    Problem with a gun, once you pull it you have to be ready to use it, i would think all gun owners that carry one for self defense know this. That is one of the examples highlighted by police agency on why a private citizen should never carry a gun or have on in the house, the handgun will end up being used against the owner. Every since i was a young man.
    nyc area ,Inside your house and someone breaking in is the only time you can use deadly force , I think it they were armed with a fire bomb you could intervene with them outside.
    I don’t agree with the laws, there are way too many instances where the race card is used only on white against black incidents, due to the media coverage and poor community leaders that always try to fan the race issue. Politic and election bids, trying to secure votes from the black community is a common strategy of DA that plan on running for public office, let us not forget the duke university students. I know of many incidents where th black people were not charged with race crimes and where white people were, due to politis .
    The only incident of a person using a handgun to defend themselves against a robber on the streets of NY that was not charged was a black person who lived in harlem and was a wheelchair user. If the person was a white person , they would have been charged. the gun used was not legally carried , but the da overlooked it in this instance.
    i think it is pretty well known if you burglarize a home or try to rob a person in texas, you may be shot.
    cauda equina

  2. #42
    Nah, that's not true. The race card is always the central point when a white shoots a black. It was played to the hilt in the Goetz case. If a white guy shoots 5 blacks boys and simply says he did so out of fear, society will think it justified and he'd get off which he did.

    In the Hull case, a white guy shoots two unarmed black guys who weren't even threatening him and the media calls him a hero and Fox news defends him.

    In this case, if a black teen (they would have been referred to them as thugs or gang members tho) had threatened to kill a white inhabitant of a home and converged on his home with 5 other black teens to make good on the threat, the media and society at large would have believed that the shooting was justified and the homeowner would have been hailed as a hero too.

    The homeowners two uncles had been savagely murdered by lynch mobs. It wouldn't have been much of a leap for him to think it was happening again. He shot Cicciaro because he thought his life was in danger. Goetz uses this defense and gets off. White uses this defense and gets convicted.

    If race wasn't a factor, Fox News would have defended White just as staunchly as they defended Hull.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Beth29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antiquity
    Nah, that's not true. The race card is always the central point when a white shoots a black. It was played to the hilt in the Goetz case. If a white guy shoots 5 blacks boys and simply says he did so out of fear, society will think it justified and he'd get off which he did.

    In the Hull case, a white guy shoots two unarmed black guys who weren't even threatening him and the media calls him a hero and Fox news defends him.

    In this case, if a black teen (they would have been referred to them as thugs or gang members tho) had threatened to kill a white inhabitant of a home and converged on his home with 5 other black teens to make good on the threat, the media and society at large would have believed that the shooting was justified and the homeowner would have been hailed as a hero too.

    The homeowners two uncles had been savagely murdered by lynch mobs. It wouldn't have been much of a leap for him to think it was happening again. He shot Cicciaro because he thought his life was in danger. Goetz uses this defense and gets off. White uses this defense and gets convicted.

    If race wasn't a factor, Fox News would have defended White just as staunchly as they defended Hull.
    Goetz - I am part of society and while I don't know what this case is all about - from your single sentence summary I don't think it's justified.

    Hull case - I don't know the details

    Mr. White's family members (I think) were murdered 20 years before he was born. Making it about 60-80 years ago. That argument seems a wee bit of a stretch. Kinda like me saying I can't drive a Vega because my father wrapped one around a telephone pole in the 1970's.... Huh?

    People can be afraid of the past; and the fear of lynch mob issues may be a more sensitive topic in Mr. White's family; but has his family been threatened by a lynch mob anytime between those two dates? They are spaced too far apart.

    I can't fear being burned at the steak because they did that to females in Salem a long time ago. My friend's family are direct descendants of Robert E. Lee does that make them qualified to fight in the military? Those are irrational fears or assumptions.

    * * *

    What about the case of OJ Simpson?
    From what I've heard, the world believes he is guilty and he managed to get away with two murders - I don't care what skin color they were - OJ's life wasn't being threatened.
    He hasn't even paid a cent to the civil case he lost and is able to live a comfortable life.
    Where is that justice?

    I don't want to search for cases where a person shoots a black person to see if they were justified in self defense or if white people just want to pick off black people like you've stated "where the race card is always central when a white shoots a black" - but I don't think you can use the word "always".
    not to throw a blind eye to the claim (certainly not) but to give examples to back up "you can't use ALWAYS"

    I am certainly not saying it doesn't happen. But always?
    The race card is pulled too often.

    Wesley Snipes even said he's being called on his tax evasion because he's black. WTF!
    Sometimes black people pull the race card when it's not warranted and all that does is make "pulling the race card" less effective and meaningful.
    It's actually damaging the good it can do if race is actually the issue.
    The boy who cried wolf

    Al Capone died in prison after being sent there for tax evasion and he's not black.
    I think governments will go after A-N-Y-O-N-E who steals from them.
    They won't care who or what you are.
    w - Dennis Kozlowski ($13 mil) serving time
    w - Luciano Pavoratti ($11 mil) acquitted once investigated a second time
    b - Daryl Strawberry ($350 k) charging for autographs is income dude!
    w - Richard Hatch - didn't pay taxes on his $1 winnings - went to jail
    w - Willie Nelson - (16.5 mil)
    w - Al Capone - died in jail
    w - Martha Stewart - $220k gave lame excuse and was fined
    w - Leona Hemsley - ($2.6 mil) time in prison
    w - Marc Anthony - ($2.5 mil) wasn't charged
    b - Martin Luther King - all WHITE jury acquitted him in 1960
    b - Richard Pryor - served 10 days for forgetting to file
    w - Sophia Loren - served 18 days in an Italian prison for tax evasion

    The even go after their own! Joseph Nunan
    Don't know this man's color but he was the IRS Commissioner from 1944-47 and in 1952 got busted for not claiming a $1,800 bet he won in his earnings.

    There are other black and white famous people convicted - but this list shows the various levels of money and public status.

    Just don't say "always"
    Last edited by Beth29; 12-27-2007 at 12:41 AM.

  4. #44
    i was reading more about the mr white case in long island, on the local police rant board, it seem mr white approached and confronted the crowd out on the street , not at his front door, not on his porch they were not even on his property when he went out with guns to confront them. they were still coming down the street. cops who have the legal right to carry and are considered always on duty know they would be in jail if they had done the same. call 911 sit tight , if anyone bust in, then you have the right to open fire. the fact that the crowd was confronted out in the street not up by the front door is a big difference. it was a bad decision by the father to go outside and confront them with a illegal gun, . if he had used the illegal gun while they were breaking in to his house it would be a misdemeanor, by going outside with it he became a felon , the police are saying the father had the gun out ponting it and the stupid drunk dead kid tried to slap it out of his hand , and mr white recovered and shot him in the face.
    ny has very differtn laws then texas and florida s far as the castle doctrine.
    e whole incident was a train wreck, the deceased kid lost his life due to bad action he took while intoxicated ,
    now 2 jury members are saying they were pressured to make a decision or they were worried they would have to serve jury duty on sunday xmas eve.
    , hopefully there will be new trial , th jury system is horrible in these major crimes, the jurors are treated like crap , they have lives they have family obligations, they have airplane tickets, weddings,
    this case is still a train wreck.
    i think they should get people that are professional jurors.
    in many of thee jurys things you nave people that are used to having a cigarettes every 15 minutes m there is no smoking in the courthouse, they are making decision when a cigarette is really on their mind, than they dont have the backbone to speak up until after the trial is over and they ate their turkey dinner
    cauda equina

  5. #45
    Beth, I was responding to Metro's post, not yours. At issue are cases where a person is killed in the name of self defense and race is a factor. See Le Types first post please. Cases involving tax evasion, investor fraud, first degree murder, serial killers etc., weren't being discussed or debated in this thread and are irrelevent to the topic. I don't recall anyone suggesting that the people you listed shouldn't have been convicted. Furthermore, Metro made several generalizations in his post which you did not take issue with, I pointed out examples where the opposite seems to be true but you did take issue. Interesting.
    Last edited by antiquity; 12-27-2007 at 01:25 AM.

  6. #46
    So you culled this info. from posters comments and not actual testimony?

    The two people Horn killed weren't on his property either, yet the media calls him a hero and Fox News defends his actions. Do you think if the White shooting had taken place in a "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand your Ground" state, he'd been called a hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by metronycguy
    i was reading more about the mr white case in long island, on the local police rant board, it seem mr white approached and confronted the crowd out on the street , not at his front door, not on his porch they were not even on his property when he went out with guns to confront them. they were still coming down the street. cops who have the legal right to carry and are considered always on duty know they would be in jail if they had done the same. call 911 sit tight , if anyone bust in, then you have the right to open fire. the fact that the crowd was confronted out in the street not up by the front door is a big difference. it was a bad decision by the father to go outside and confront them with a illegal gun, . if he had used the illegal gun while they were breaking in to his house it would be a misdemeanor, by going outside with it he became a felon , the police are saying the father had the gun out ponting it and the stupid drunk dead kid tried to slap it out of his hand , and mr white recovered and shot him in the face.
    ny has very differtn laws then texas and florida s far as the castle doctrine.
    e whole incident was a train wreck, the deceased kid lost his life due to bad action he took while intoxicated ,
    now 2 jury members are saying they were pressured to make a decision or they were worried they would have to serve jury duty on sunday xmas eve.
    , hopefully there will be new trial , th jury system is horrible in these major crimes, the jurors are treated like crap , they have lives they have family obligations, they have airplane tickets, weddings,
    this case is still a train wreck.
    i think they should get people that are professional jurors.
    in many of thee jurys things you nave people that are used to having a cigarettes every 15 minutes m there is no smoking in the courthouse, they are making decision when a cigarette is really on their mind, than they dont have the backbone to speak up until after the trial is over and they ate their turkey dinner
    Last edited by antiquity; 12-27-2007 at 02:39 AM.

  7. #47
    antiquity there are no similarities in the laws of Texas and the law of new york concerning your right to defend oneself , property is a whole another issue .
    the jury convict on the way the judge charges the jury, he /she is very explicit on what the laws for the area state what happening in Texas doesn't matter, what you think doesn't matter, fairness doesnt matter,
    you cannot compare the cases the laws are so different,
    tomorrows i could give a list of the crimes that i know about that were big in the media , but since th victim was white=no race crime \ defendants white = all race crimes.
    i know sharpton from his perjured start in wappinger falls and the tawany brawley case ,
    cauda equina

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by metronycguy
    antiquity there are no similarities in the laws of Texas and the law of new york concerning your right to defend oneself , property is a whole another issue .
    the jury convict on the way the judge charges the jury, he /she is very explicit on what the laws for the area state what happening in Texas doesn't matter, what you think doesn't matter, fairness doesnt matter,
    you cannot compare the cases the laws are so different,
    tomorrows i could give a list of the crimes that i know about that were big in the media , but since th victim was white=no race crime \ defendants white = all race crimes.
    i know sharpton from his perjured start in wappinger falls and the tawany brawley case ,
    I know the laws are different, I wasn't asking you to compare the laws, I was asking if you thought White would be hailed as a hero if he lived in a castle doctrine state. The conservative media called Horn a hero, they endlessly harped on the victims ethnicity. Every time I flipped on Fox News that week they were talking about it. Then I hear about the White case and wonder why Fox news didn't call him a hero. Conservative media tends to support homeowners arming themselves and killing tresspassers, even people who weren't tresspassing on the homeowners property. They are very pro-NRA but still no mention of the White case which I found ironic. Seems like a classic case of self defense, much moreso than the Horn case. You keep saying that in NY, a person can't shoot another person in the name of self defense yet you bring up Goetz who claimed just that and he was exonerated. You're contradicting yourself.

  9. #49
    antiquity , i have no idea on what the conservative media or fox media broadcasts, i just know what happen in my hood i knew a little a bit about the texas thing, but nowhere as much until i read the links in this thread, i don't think the texas incident received much coverage here. i have heard people say the liberal media in ny will not publish something as pro gun , pro whitey as in the Texas Case. i also know of incidents that happened this year in the usa where the crimes were horrific, had definite anti white racial statements , capital crimes including kidnapping ,multiple rapes , multiple murders, crimes so severe, it was like a KKK hate handbill, ny and national media did not cover it, they were probably focusing on paris Hilton.
    think we agree on the the media , in no way was i supporting the media viewpoint , i just have issues with the race card being used only white against black in the ny area. we have liberal media here and prosecuters rarely will charge a race crime in black against white attacks, even though anti white racial terms are used during the attack. Black race bias crime against white are considered too cortiversal and most ehite prosecuters have polical aspirations and want to keep the black vote.
    i think ny is opposite of the rest of the country.
    Bernie goetz incident was over 20 years ago and a different era in nyc, violent crime was rampant and unchecked. subways were and still are a criminals stalking ground. they were planning on robbing him, he had been mugged before, it was in a subway car, where there is no escape or retreat. you are cornered, you have to act fast or you will be over powered and possible killed, your gun will be used agaisnt you when they find it when they are robbing you. There was an incident in Brooklyn within the last year on a subway platform where a armed cop was beat close to death when he tried to stop criminal activity on the platform . i know the reality of what happens in the neighborhood , not what the media plays up.
    in ny most of the media panders to al sharpton who should have been booted out on his butt by his community with the Tawany Brawley stuff.
    cauda equina

  10. #50
    I saw on the news that Rev. Al Sharpton is going to protest the verdict.

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