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Thread: The multi-layered tragedy - opinions wanted!

  1. #21
    I didn't say he had a legal right to shoot him, (although he would have in states where there are shoot first and castle doctrine laws), I said, given the circumstances, he obviously felt that his life and the life of his family were in danger and acted in self defense. Based on the testimony, White asked the mob who had just threatened to kill his son to leave his property and they refused. The shooting was preceeded by a threat of physical violence and force against an individual residing in the home. His actions would be supported by the NRA.

    What happened here is not much different from the cases below where the homeowner is absolved and assumed to have acted in self defense.

    "The homeowner saw two men at his back fence," Mr. Gamino said. "He then saw one of the men climb over his fence and hit the back door." The homeowner, believing that his home was being invaded, fired a pistol three times through the door. Mr. De Vries died at the scene, but Mr. Graves was not harmed.

    The police said they had no plans to charge the homeowner with a crime, although the case, like all shootings in Texas, will be referred to a grand jury.

    Judy Jowers, who lives on Warrenton Drive, a neighborhood where home-alarm stickers are as numerous as basketball hoops, said, "It saddens me that things are the way they are -- that you have to resort to having a gun in your house." She described her neighbors as "real nice, ordinary people trying to make a go of things around here -- hard-working, middle-class, family people."

    The case is reminiscent of an incident in October 1992 in which a Japanese student in Louisiana was killed by a homeowner who said he had thought the student was trying to invade his home. The student, who did not understand English well, failed to comply when the homeowner told him to freeze. The homeowner was acquitted on manslaughter charges.
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C0A962958260

    According to one of our shoot first/ask questions later cc'ers, you have to take the law into your own hands and cannot rely on police arriving in time to protect you as 911 response times are slow.
    Last edited by antiquity; 12-22-2007 at 02:35 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by antiquity
    I didn't say he had a legal right to shoot him, (although he would have in states where there are shoot first and castle doctrine laws), I said, given the circumstances, he obviously felt that his life and the life of his family were in danger and acted in self defense. Based on the testimony, White asked the mob who had just threatened to kill his son to leave his property and they refused. The shooting was preceeded by a threat of physical violence and force against an individual residing in the home. His actions would be supported by the NRA.

    What happened here is not much different from the cases below where the homeowner is absolved and assumed to have acted in self defense.

    According to one of our shoot first/ask questions later cc'ers, you have to take the law into your own hands and cannot rely on police arriving in time to protect you as 911 response times are slow.
    Read some of the things you're saying Antiquity. You're starting to sound like this yourself.

    How do you feel about gun control, and the use of violence for selfdefense? I don't remember you taking the conservative stance. NRA?

    Is there another reason you're supporting this killing?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ala
    Read some of the things you're saying Antiquity. You're starting to sound like this yourself.

    How do you feel about gun control, and the use of violence for selfdefense? I don't remember you taking the conservative stance. NRA?

    Is there another reason you're supporting this killing?
    I specifically said that line of thinking was in league with cetain CC's, I wasn't referring to myself. Did you read post #6? To repeat, I'm suprised this thread isn't full of the ask first/shoot later CC's who defended the Texan for shooting two people for tresspassing. Yet, in this case, some of the same pro-gun, pro-castle doctrine, pro-NRA, pro-"homeowners have the right to shoot tresspassers" folks are siding with the tresspassing mob who threatened one of the homes residents with death. Seems a little hypocritical to me.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by antiquity
    I specifically said that line of thinking was in league with cetain CC's, I wasn't referring to myself. Did you read post #6? To repeat, I'm suprised this thread isn't full of the ask first/shoot later CC's who defended the Texan for shooting two people for tresspassing. Yet, in this case, some of the same pro-gun, pro-castle doctrine, pro-NRA, pro-"homeowners have the right to shoot tresspassers" folks are siding with the tresspassing mob who threatened one of the homes residents with death. Seems a little hypocritical to me.
    If the rest of what you said in post #21 was meant to be ironic, I understand. But after reading post #14, it doesn't sound that way. Of course your explanation is good enough for me.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by antiquity
    I The shooting was preceeded by a threat of physical violence and force against an individual residing i.
    ok gotcha, i see what your saying.
    i think all gun owners in this area of ny know that they cannot use a firearm to protect themselves outside their house, in their front yard. this man was a gun owner , he knew what the laws are concerning use of a firearm to protect himself. From the news reports i read, the father who shot and killed the kid uttered the words "we lost everything" ," we lost the house" to his wife when he was being handcuffed. he knew he was screwed and f*&k up . there have been other well publicized cases in the down state areas where fire arms were used for defence , even cops have been put in jail for screwing up.
    i haven't followed the whole case, was the father possible drinking when the son came home, was he asleep? i know gang of teenagers had alcohol involvement. bad decisions were made by many that night.
    i still cant get over the father having his son follow him outside with a shotgun. i just cant understand why they didnt stay inside and wait for police. in this area. people know you cant be going outside shooting , unless they are trying to torch your house.
    i need to read up on the texas one. texas we know has much different viewpoint on handling of crime.
    cauda equina

  6. #26
    From what I've read, I think Ciccaro and his friends were one of the popular groups in school. Given their age and popularity, they felt untouchable. Add some alcohol and it's even worse. I think Mr. White came out with a gun trying to scare the group away by showing it to the group. Most people would back down if you point a gun at them and they don't have one to point at you. I don't think the gun scared them, Ciccaro tried to smack it out of his hand and in the scuffle the gun went off. If you have a group of people coming to your house and you intend to shoot, I think the shotgun would be the weapon of choice.

  7. #27

  8. #28
    tragedy for all involved. the guy that started the incident with the false myspace posting should be prosecuted for inciting a riot. i see people here are discounting internet posting , that they mean nothing. all the police departments and schools ,public facilities take them very serious nowadays Many of the shooting in the schools were preceded by internet postings.
    the person that provided the teens with alcohol should also be prosecuted.
    it sounds like if alcohol was not involved it would never have come to this tragic ending.
    coming outside with a gun was just the wrong thing to do, nyc area people grew up with the bernie goetz trials and the implications of using a gun for self defense in the ny area , there is a fine line. not that i agree with the line, personally i think defending yourself in the subway is ok, Bernie goetz erred by acting like vigilantesrather than a defender
    cauda equina

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by metronycguy
    tragedy for all involved. the guy that started the incident with the false myspace posting should be prosecuted for inciting a riot. i see people here are discounting internet posting , that they mean nothing. all the police departments and schools ,public facilities take them very serious nowadays Many of the shooting in the schools were preceded by internet postings.
    the person that provided the teens with alcohol should also be prosecuted.
    it sounds like if alcohol was not involved it would never have come to this tragic ending.
    coming outside with a gun was just the wrong thing to do, nyc area people grew up with the bernie goetz trials and the implications of using a gun for self defense in the ny area , there is a fine line. not that i agree with the line, personally i think defending yourself in the subway is ok, Bernie goetz erred by acting like vigilantesrather than a defender
    Mike,

    I'm totally with you on this. I think people should be held accountable for online behavior.


  10. #30
    If Cicciaro had been shot in the back while fleeing instead of in the face, White should have been found guilty but Cicciaro continued to advanced and even tried to wrestle the gun from him. Whites fear for his life and Cicciaro's unabated aggression led to the shooting.

    If the situation was reversed, I doubt if White would have been found guilty.

    Juror felt pressured to convict John White

    Horn shoots and kills two unarmed men at a neighbors house as they supposedly advance on him and he's called a hero. They were shot in the back so they weren't advancing on him at the time. He was not defending his life when he shot them.

    Texan 'hero' shoots and kills burglars

    As far as internet usage, I don't get the "it's not real/its a fantasy world" attitude. Real people are sitting behind their computers making those threats and real people carry them out. Federal laws have been passed criminalizing internet death threats, child sex solicitation, coersion or enticement, cyber bullying by exes etc. and rightfully so. What takes place over the internet is very real. The secret service doesn't refer to cyber death threats against elected officials as innocent hoaxes or jokes so why should we. I was a victim a couple of years which is why I'm very careful about disclosing personal identifying info. on the net. Psychos use the internet too.
    Last edited by antiquity; 12-24-2007 at 09:58 PM.

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