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Thread: The Earth is older than 6000 years

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by hardluckhitshome
    I went to a Yeshiva for high school and I was taught that the world is not 6000 years old. It's less than that. Right now the world is 5,768 years old (we count our years from the Creation which means the Hebrew year is 5768). I do not think my belief in this harms society and so I do not see what is so bad about it. Especially since we don't demand that everyone else believe it.
    Great point. If it doesn't hurt anyone or impede science/progress, then
    people can believe whatever they want.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by hardluckhitshome
    I went to a Yeshiva for high school and I was taught that the world is not 6000 years old. It's less than that. Right now the world is 5,768 years old (we count our years from the Creation which means the Hebrew year is 5768). I do not think my belief in this harms society and so I do not see what is so bad about it. Especially since we don't demand that everyone else believe it.
    I agree. Debate and tolerance are important and censorship of opposing ideas shouldn't be forbidden.


  3. #13
    Senior Member Zeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardluckhitshome
    I went to a Yeshiva for high school and I was taught that the world is not 6000 years old. It's less than that. Right now the world is 5,768 years old (we count our years from the Creation which means the Hebrew year is 5768). I do not think my belief in this harms society and so I do not see what is so bad about it. Especially since we don't demand that everyone else believe it.
    I tend to agree.

    But when these beliefs are taught in science classes I have a huge problem. I also get frustrated when people take the words of the Torah or Gospels literally in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    For example, if the Torah stated the Kotel was only 3 metres tall, but you could stand before that wall and see it was clearly much taller, would you assume your eyes were in error?

    The actual evidence for the Earth being older than 6000 years is beyond overwhelming. To ignore all of that evidence in the name of faith does a great disservice to one of God's greatest creations - the human mind.

    Chris.
    Have you ever seen a human heart? It looks like a fist wrapped in blood! Larry in 'Closer', a play by Partick Marber

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by cspanos
    But when these beliefs are taught in science classes I have a huge problem. I also get frustrated when people take the words of the Torah or Gospels literally in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    Chris.
    Also a valid point. Unfortunately, our aversion to Fundamentalism is often deemed as heresy.


  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by cspanos
    I tend to agree.

    But when these beliefs are taught in science classes I have a huge problem. I also get frustrated when people take the words of the Torah or Gospels literally in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
    As you know, Islam and Christianity incorporated our creation story into their own religions - and while it is flattering that they believe the Torah in this regard, it is odd that they demand others believe it too. To us, there is no need for goyim to believe in the creation since G-d neither expects it of you nor judges you based upon your belief in the story. Therefore we have no reason to get you to believe it. So I do not understand your frustration for Christians, Muslims, and Jews believing it, and I do not understand Christian and Islamic frustration at you not believing it. To Jews, good if you believe it, fine if you don't. It would be nice if secularists, Muslims, and Christians had the same attitude.

    For example, if the Torah stated the Kotel was only 3 metres tall, but you could stand before that wall and see it was clearly much taller, would you assume your eyes were in error?
    Ha, no danger of that happening since the Torah was given waaay before the Kotel was in existence. But in the interest of furthering the discussion, a common complaint is that the Torah includes a geographical desciption of a tub that would give an incorrect figure for Pi. I posted this once before on the Jewish thead, so I apologize for the repeat post to those who have seen this already:

    To help you read this, Chris, I'll translate some of the Hebrew:
    Gematria - Hebraic codes, numerology of sorts
    Shlomo HaMelech - King Solomon
    Melachim - Book of Kings (might be book of Chronicles in the Christian bible)
    Pasuk - verse

    Gematria of the Week
    The Vilna Gaon was such a renowned genius, they say he used to study math in the bathroom, when he couldn't learn Torah. He offers a tremendous insight into the work of the wisest man of all time, Shlomo HaMelech. In Melachim there is a record of an iron tub. The wording is "ten cubits from its one lip to its other, circular all around, a thirty cubit line would encircle it all around" (7:23). Anyone with a basic understanding of geometry should recognize the immediate question. If the diameter is 10 cubits, as described, then the circumference should be approximately 31.4 cubits, not just thirty! The other abnormality is the spelling of the word "line". The word is "Kav", which is typically spelled with the two Hebrew letters "Kuf" and "Vav". The text here adds an extra (and silent) "Hay," for no apparent purpose. The Vilna Gaon explains this pasuk to be a code of sorts. He takes the crude value of the ratio of the circumference to diameter in the verse, 30:10 (3/1) and uses it as a key. Next he divides the gematria of the word "Kav" with a "Hay" by the word "Kav" without a "Hay." (The spelling divided by the pronunciation.) This is 111/106. Multiply that by the key, 3, and presto, you have Pi. (Pi is the mathematical constant describing the relationship of the diameter of a circle to its circumference. It approximately equals 3.1415. Mathematicians still do not have a finite value for Pi.) Shlomo HaMelech encrypted the value of Pi into the text, with an accuracy to the ninth decimal place, not to be matched by mathematicians until the time of Isaac Newton (1642-1727)!


    Pretty cool, eh? And the Christians will appreciate that too since it's in their Bible as well.

    The actual evidence for the Earth being older than 6000 years is beyond overwhelming. To ignore all of that evidence in the name of faith does a great disservice to one of God's greatest creations - the human mind.

    Chris.
    People have tried to disprove the Torah for millennia. And yet people believe. They will always believe.

    "Hashem - only He is G-d. Hashem - only He is G-d"

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by hardluckhitshome
    I went to a Yeshiva for high school and I was taught that the world is not 6000 years old. It's less than that. Right now the world is 5,768 years old (we count our years from the Creation which means the Hebrew year is 5768). I do not think my belief in this harms society and so I do not see what is so bad about it. Especially since we don't demand that everyone else believe it.
    Hard,

    While I don't know what you do and therefore cannot judge whether it harms society, I must say that I certainly would not trust a scientist, engineer, lawyer, or poliician who says that the earth is 5768 years old. I am not sure that one can truly believe something unless one acts upon it.

    So, what kinds of actions depend on the assumption that that world is older? A surprising number of decisions depend on the fact that the world is older than 6000 years. Let me give just a few examples:
    • One would not be able to explain the presence of oil and coal underground since it requires millions of years for such oil and coal to form. Therefore, one must assume that they don't exist if the earth is less than 6,000 years old, unless we assume that God made the oil and coal deposits.
    • Evolution would not be possible in such a short time span. We should not study the genome because evoluton takes many millions of years. There should not be much change of the genes over this period of time. From studies of the change of genes, we know that it takes many thousands of years for genes to change.
    • All the observations regarding the change of radioactivity over time, the formation of geological structures by tectonic plates, the stars and galaxies moving away from us, and fossils must all be wrong.

    If there is no oil or coal, we should not be look for them. If there is no evolution and all animals are made by God, who put the genes there just to fool us scientists, we should just stop all genetic research. Why should we study rats as a model of human spinal cord injury? Finally, let us just forget about sending spaceships out. After all, if the Universe is only 6,000 years old, all the stuff that is going on millions of light years away just cannot be.

    I submit that it does hurt society if we teach that the earth is less than 6,000 years old when it is not. It not only hurts society. It also hurts religion for religion should not be based on ignorance and lies. It should not perpetrate igorance and lies. Religion has to be about the truth.

    Wise.

  7. #17
    Senior Member justadildo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young
    Hard,

    Religion has to be about the truth.

    Wise.

    ha ! ...thats funny doc..i think i just peed myself..politics and religion "can't" be about the truth...that's about as funny as the earth being 6k y.o.

  8. #18
    Banned adi chicago's Avatar
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    carbon dated .............
    • Dum spiro, spero.
      • Translation: "As long as I breathe, I hope."

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by justadildo
    ha ! ...thats funny doc..i think i just peed myself..politics and religion "can't" be about the truth...that's about as funny as the earth being 6k y.o.
    Yeah, I don't understand that remark either.

    Where is the truth in any religion?

    At least everyone has common sense when it comes to politics.
    But in religion, for some reason it's ok to believe in things that are
    incredibly far-fetched.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Type Fran├žais
    Dr. Young,

    Religious dogma is stupidity by consensus.
    All religion (and beliefs therein) is dogma.

    Actually, much of our lives, be it in a religious or secular context, functions within some dogma - providing the framework for any functioning society.

    Evolution is dogma, that continues to build upon itself, and is reinforced, with new scientific discoveries and ongoing experimentation.

    The natural world, functions within some dogma (order, law), which we continuously attempt to explore and understand... trying to 'figure out' what's going on and furthermore... why. We then create more systems, that provide the foundation and establish that framework toward understanding... and maybe... hopefully... truth.

    But truth... from religious and spiritual, to the scientific, is always controlled and constrained within the rules (of understanding) we (humans) have established, isn't it.

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