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Thread: Wound ballistics

  1. #11
    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    I found this interesting reading if a little headache inducing in the case of Fackler's writings. And of course its an awfully morbid subject. That said, only 2 small things i would like to point out. Dr Young, 9mm velocities aren't in the neighborhood of 1000m/s - that's over 3200fps. I can't even think of a .35 caliber magnum rifle cartridge loading that powerful, at least not off hand. As I imagine you were referring to handguns in the 9m context, velocities range from about 1000fps for 147 grain loads to 1200fps for 115 grain +P+ (or '9mm NATO') loads. Which brings me to my other observation. Seems that there were/are two schools of thought re: wound ballistics - big and slow versus small and fast. While a highly subjective thing, most hunters use smaller caliber rifles than larger, why? simply put, rifle cartridges are much much more powerful than handgun cartridges of the same caliber. Handgun cartridges are inherently underpowered (thus their defensive role).

    Sonic wave or no, what it all boils down to is energy transfer - generally speaking, the more energy you fire into the target and transfer in the shortest possible distance, the more quickly you incapacitate the target. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

    Tom

  2. #12
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    Dr. Young, yes, handgun rounds are very different than high powered rifle rounds. A 9mm bullet has a muzzle velocity of just over 1000fps while the velocity on impact would be much less. While most high powered rifle rounds retain velocity for greater distances. The wound tunnel you explain is much the same as you would see from a rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young
    NorthQuad, I have some difficulty believing that a video can actually visualized a sonic wave. The wave is typically a millisecond or less in duration. The wave would be travelling close to the speed of sound, far too fast for any video to capture. Perhaps the video captured a spasm of the animal, rather than a sonic wave?
    There is a video from a gunshot wound study from the 80's that allows you to see the shock wave clearly. The videos I've seen are of much better quality than this video as the cameras have come a long way since the 80's.

    Video found here.
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/visibleproofs...ale/index.html

    If you can emagine a bullet passing through at least three times faster (which a 7mm rifle bullet would) I'm sure you can understand how much more violent the outcome would be. Thus causing greater damage deeper into tissues and bone.

  3. #13
    Senior Member stlyin moe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthQuad
    Dr. Young, yes, handgun rounds are very different than high powered rifle rounds. A 9mm bullet has a muzzle velocity of just over 1000fps while the velocity on impact would be much less. While most high powered rifle rounds retain velocity for greater distances. The wound tunnel you explain is much the same as you would see from a rifle.


    There is a video from a gunshot wound study from the 80's that allows you to see the shock wave clearly. The videos I've seen are of much better quality than this video as the cameras have come a long way since the 80's.

    Video found here.
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/visibleproofs...ale/index.html

    If you can emagine a bullet passing through at least three times faster (which a 7mm rifle bullet would) I'm sure you can understand how much more violent the outcome would be. Thus causing greater damage deeper into tissues and bone.
    It is also possible to actually see a round go down range on certain days by viewing the "shock wave" that surrounds the bullet as it travels. It looks sorta like a very rapidly moving heat wave.

    I'll see if I can find some video of a prarie dog shoot that clearly illustrates this point and post the link...
    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthQuad
    There is a video from a gunshot wound study from the 80's that allows you to see the shock wave clearly.
    The terms "shock" and "sonic" are being used interchangeably in this thread. Do "sonic wave" and "shock wave" truly refer to the same phenomena?

    C.

  5. #15
    Senior Member stlyin moe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Racing
    The terms "shock" and "sonic" are being used interchangeably in this thread. Do "sonic wave" and "shock wave" truly refer to the same phenomena?

    C.
    You are correct, they shouldn't be used interchangeably. My mistake, I meant sonic wave.

    I did find that vid clip here... http://www.dogbegone.com/video.htm (click on the "Gutless in Montana" clip and you'll clearly see the sonic wave and what it does to a prairie dog. Bear in mind this is a .22 caliber round traveling at 4,000 fps) WARNING!! THIS VID IS EXTREMELY BRUTAL TO VIEW. IF YOU'RE OFFENDED BY ANIMALS BEING SHOT OR HAVE A WEAK STOMACH DO NOT VIEW THIS VID!!
    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson

  6. #16
    Senior Member Foolish Old's Avatar
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    Having been involuntarily recruited as a subject in human trials, I can state conclusively that a large caliber handgun and a 12 gauge shotgun pressed against the human skull sends fear waves through that body that cause the spontaneous release of urine and focuses one on the immediate present.

    Working in an ER and growing up in the hood, I learned that bullets and pellets sure make a mess out of human flesh.

    I leave the heavier scientific findings to y'all.
    Last edited by Foolish Old; 08-20-2007 at 04:11 PM.
    Foolish

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Racing
    The terms "shock" and "sonic" are being used interchangeably in this thread. Do "sonic wave" and "shock wave" truly refer to the same phenomena?

    C.
    Yeah, two different things. I'll watch myself.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolish Old
    Having been involuntarily recruited as a subject in human trials, I can state conclusively that a large caliber handgun and a 12 gauge shotgun pressed against the human skull sends fear waves through that body that cause the spontaneous release of urine and focuses one on the immediate present.
    I've had a couple pointed but never pressed up against me. It would be frightening.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Foolish Old's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthQuad
    I've had a couple pointed but never pressed up against me. It would be frightening.
    It is. Especially when the gun holders are bug-eyed with fear themselves.
    Foolish

    "We have met the enemy and he is us."-POGO.

    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."~Edgar Allan Poe

    "Dream big, you might never wake up!"- Snoop Dogg

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hype62
    I find this article interesting, because my sci was due to a bullet injury. Was at the wrong place at the wrong time. God I hate guns.
    I am just curious, did you hate guns before you were injured? I was injured on a motorcycle and wish I could ride one today. As for guns I dont leave home without one with the world like it is today. Being a quad walking with a cane I feel I am an easy mark for any asshole, and there are plenty around.

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