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Thread: a cure ?when and by who?

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by lunasicc42 View Post
    so paolo, is it safe to say that you are not excited about the potentials of e-stim? Not in a hostile argumentive manner at all but for the sake of actual enlightening discussion: what is it about e-stim that you think is hype? Unlike some others on here I don't think of you as a negative shit-starter but everything that I have read on e-stim has been pretty exciting and don't understand why you don't like that avenue of research. No broad or generalizing statements please
    Just interested why you are not excited about e-stim like most of us are. How could we not be?
    In a recent SCI research meeting Reggie was kindly asked twice if he could show data that indicate recovery of B&B and he just went around the question both times. There were about 150 researchers in the room.. I felt sorry for Reggie... I mean to tell researchers that e-stim induce recovery of B&B and then not showing any data is as low as a charlatan's level in my opinion.

    Does that answer your question?

    You just said you think the edgerton type is going to bring recovery, on what do you base your hope? Tell me that, then I may ask you to do a fact checking and I will help you with that if you like.
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by lunasicc42 View Post
    so paolo, is it safe to say that you are not excited about the potentials of e-stim? Not in a hostile argumentive manner at all but for the sake of actual enlightening discussion: what is it about e-stim that you think is hype? Unlike some others on here I don't think of you as a negative shit-starter but everything that I have read on e-stim has been pretty exciting and don't understand why you don't like that avenue of research. No broad or generalizing statements please
    Just interested why you are not excited about e-stim like most of us are. How could we not be?
    BTW just a similar issue... do you remember about the 75% of people walking after UCB cells transplant? When I started questioning it I have been attached by many... now who was right?
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  3. #103
    Senior Member lunasicc42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    In a recent SCI research meeting Reggie was kindly asked twice if he could show data that indicate recovery of B&B and he just went around the question both times. There were about 150 researchers in the room.. I felt sorry for Reggie... I mean to tell researchers that e-stim induce recovery of B&B and then not showing any data is as low as a charlatan's level in my opinion.

    Does that answer your question?

    You just said you think the edgerton type is going to bring recovery, on what do you base your hope? Tell me that, then I may ask you to do a fact checking and I will help you with that if you like.

    To be honest I have based my hope on the many internet news articles that have spoken of such returns ...in all honesty I haven't read any in depth scientific articles yet, so I see that point
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  4. #104
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunasicc42 View Post
    so paolo, is it safe to say that you are not excited about the potentials of e-stim? Not in a hostile argumentive manner at all but for the sake of actual enlightening discussion: what is it about e-stim that you think is hype? Unlike some others on here I don't think of you as a negative shit-starter but everything that I have read on e-stim has been pretty exciting and don't understand why you don't like that avenue of research. No broad or generalizing statements please
    Just interested why you are not excited about e-stim like most of us are. How could we not be?
    Pardon me for butting in, but those original four from the Reeve Foundation have not fully recovered. I think the e-stim thing is a great tool for rehab .. and something is better than nothing .. but it's not a cure nor a treatment to restore walking.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

  5. #105
    Senior Member lunasicc42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynnifer View Post
    Pardon me for butting in, but those original four from the Reeve Foundation have not fully recovered. I think the e-stim thing is a great tool for rehab .. and something is better than nothing .. but it's not a cure nor a treatment to restore walking.
    I am more interested in the aspect of BBSF return and talk of arm and Possibly hand and finger function return than walking and am I wrong in thinking that the edgerton approach is more bold and produces better results than harkema?
    "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

    "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


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  6. #106
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Off the top of my head, Edgerton's was less invasive.

    Bowel bladder and sexual function return would be great .. but e-stim would affect the muscles, not sensation. One's not good without the other.

    I hope I'm proved wrong .. but ..
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

  7. #107
    Senior Member Tim C.'s Avatar
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    E-Stim is nothing other than a novelty item working on age-old research findings that we get as a take-home-gadget from our PT-OTs at rehab.
    It NEVER, I repeat NEVER restored function in anyone, anywhere, period, and I'm sure every research college has tested and trialed it to kingdom come. Maybe it helped one or two with some pain? But function, function that wasn't naturally coming back anyway? Nah.
    No real data has ever been presented to prove it's not a toy.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim C. View Post
    E-Stim is nothing other than a novelty item working on age-old research findings that we get as a take-home-gadget from our PT-OTs at rehab.
    It NEVER, I repeat NEVER restored function in anyone, anywhere, period, and I'm sure every research college has tested and trialed it to kingdom come. Maybe it helped one or two with some pain? But function, function that wasn't naturally coming back anyway? Nah.
    No real data has ever been presented to prove it's not a toy.
    Do you mean e-stim as epidural stimulator?

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by lynnifer View Post
    Off the top of my head, Edgerton's was less invasive.

    Bowel bladder and sexual function return would be great .. but e-stim would affect the muscles, not sensation. One's not good without the other.

    I hope I'm proved wrong .. but ..
    An electrical field affects everything within the field, not just one particular type of tissue.

    Thus, any kinds of electrical stimulation has effects on sensory nerves, as the electrical field generated by stimulation encompasses the sensory nerves. Whether or not this would impact sensory function generally has not been looked at. I think electrical stimulation has the potential to aid sensory function, but we won't know until researchers do the proper experiments (i.e., experiments with sensory return after SCI being the ultimate goal).

  10. #110
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Interesting. Certainly there must be former trial patients who can inform that sensation has returned. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

    When I say e-stim, I mean the new stimulation of the spinal cord, not the muscles themselves. I call that FES.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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