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Thread: Mutilation of daughter as disability treatment

  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Lindox
    Can you ask Ashley if that's what she wants?
    And therein lies the crux of this entire thread
    C5/6 incomplete

    "I assume you all have guns and crack....."

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindox
    Leif,
    What will be bettered by putting the parents in jail?
    Can you ask Ashley if that's what she wants?
    Wouldn't it be better to be open to these parents and try to influence other parents that are thinking about using these methods?

    If I was given the choice of having my uterus removed or losing my Dad as a child I would have said take the damn uterus.

    Even a three month old baby knows their mothers voice and touch.

    Wouldn't it be better to try and find alternatives for others..there is nothing you can do to put back Ashleys uterus. You can influence the parents about using the hormone therapy..but then you better have love involved in that influence or it won't make a damn bit of difference for anyone.

    I agree..what they chose to do was beyond extreme.
    But taking away the only parents Ashley knows is being pretty extreme also.
    Hello Lindox,

    As for your first question, anything would be better for this kid, especially to put those parents sooooo far out of distance from this kid as possible, because they have nothing to do with her, as they have proven. She is a human being, and those folks are too lazy.

    Read my post in this thread how a wife handled her husband for instance. Those lazy parents should have seen that TV clip. The wife in that clip was superwoman, not afraid of crypton at all. I’m not saying any should be a superwoman or superman, but give me a break.

    Open to those parents you say; man, how to be open to crazy ppl like this? That’s the same as to be open to potential bank robber and a cop killer etc. even before they do the harm. The answer is it is difficult, but society has to put up some rules upfront. This goes for both in this example.

    Lindox, how many cries here (inside and real) about the removal of this kid’s uterus etc.? None, I didn’t? Did you? Or for that matter any here in this thread? See how this is going, some has to put the foot down. I will and have no problems with it what so ever.

    As for your last paragraph. I sincerely mean that a mutilated or obsessed kid should not live with the ones doing that and those doing that to a kid should have a hard fist planted in their face. Get real.

  3. #603
    Leif,
    I could agree with you if the parents had done the surgeries themselves, but they did not. They got advice from doctors who said it was OK. I think the advice given was bad and if proven that the doctors did not follow laws we do have to protect children - they should be punished. And if they did follow all the laws - then our laws are not good enough and have to be changed.

    Good people can make very bad decisions. I think Ashley's parents truly believe what they did was best for Ashley. They found people who agreed with them. If instead they had found people who disagreed and gave them another, better choice I am sure they would have taken it. One family cannot know all of the options available to them, but a hospital and a 44 person ethics board certainly should.
    Susan
    Ashley is a little girl worth knowing about:http://www.ashleyx.info

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by PDnemesis
    Wise: So, let me ask a question that everybody seems to be avoiding. Is it true that people like Ashley have arrested brain development?

    First, it seems obvious to me by the way the parents describe Ashley and their interactions with her that she does not have the mind of a three month old.

    I have a 23 year old son with Down syndrome and fetal alcohol effect that tests to have the mind of a three year old. He cannot remember more than two things in sequence, he cannot do the simplest memory game, he can not correctly identify which is different when 3 like and 1 unlike items are presented to him. He cannot read, count, or think abstractly. This is how he tested when he was 6 years old. IQ 43. Nothing has changed.

    Except he cooks 50% of the meals in our household without assistance, does all his own laundry, provides care for 2 rabbits, gets himself up for school (in Michigan special ed kids go to school until 26) and off completely on his own, has his own business selling t-shirts, avidly watched the Superbowl, and is already campaigning for Hillary Clinton. None of these things was he capable of or interested in when he was 6 and yet the testing of his brain is unchanged. IQ: 43.

    A few things that have changed recently are that this past summer were he started to use clauses in his sentences, he seemed to be able to read a few words, and he began to show anger when negative consequences were presented to him. This demonstrates intellectual growth. So I asked that he be tested this year even though it was not required for school. Same as usual - no change. Same IQ since age 6.

    So is this evidence of arrested brain development or do we have to think of intelligence differently?

    Would Ashley always test as a three month old? Would that mean that she always experienced her world as a three month old?

    How many untethered lives are we going to sacrifice in the name of the "Ashley Treatment"?

    Susan
    Susan,

    Not having been a parent with a mentally retarded child, I can't speak from personal experience. However, I can speak as a neuroscientist and can categorically state that statements such as "arrested brain development from the time of birth", that the hormonal treatment will have no effect on Ashley's status, and that she will forever have the mental age of a 3-month old are unscientific and irresponsible.

    I disagree with Leif and other discussants who believe that the parents or doctors should be punished. I don't think that Ashley has been "mutilated". I believe that the intentions of both the doctors and parents were well-meaning. What is done has been done. The goal of the discussion is not to punish the doctors or parents. It is to discuss the issues so that better decisions are made in the future.

    I respect you for what you have done for your child. As lindox pointed out, it is an act of love. And, you are correct in pointing out that many kids who have emotional difficulties are much more difficult to take care of than Ashley. An IQ is an artificial measure that does not necessarily reflect many aspects of intelligence, competence, or value as a human being. Put in its starkest terms, in Ashley's case, a low IQ test score has been used to deprive a child of sexuality, reproductive choice, and ability to grow.

    Please understand that I don't want to imply that one should never intervene medically or surgically in a child. The decisions can be much more difficult. For example, if Ashley has emotional difficulties, including obsessive-compulsive behavior, would it be acceptable to do a frontal lobotomy? What should be done about the children with Lesch-Nyhan syndrome (autodestructive behavior) and Lennox-Gastaut syndrome (multiple drug-resistant seizures per day). The decisions are heart-breaking.

    The decisions made concerning Ashley are unusual because they are relatively extreme solutions for perceived problems based on unsubstantiated assumptions concerning the benefit of such therapies and the prospect of Ashley's future development. Despite the experimental nature of the treatments, the procedures were not reviewed by an IRB. The public statements of the head of the ethical board suggest both bias and ignorance concerning mental retardation. The system failed to protect Ashley.

    Wise.

  5. #605
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    Susan,
    No, to me this seems like they would have taken her to a ’stan country to have this done regardless the cost. This was bad parental judgements as for being in charge of a kid. Btw. Is mommy working, is dad taking decisions etc. Who decided all this? Mum or the lazy Dad butt?

  6. #606
    Leif,
    This surgery was done in their own community - obviousy they didn't have to look too far to find doctors willing to do this. To me the question is would this had happened if they had lived elsewhere? Did they just "luck' out to have a hospital willing to do this - or would any teaching hospital have been convinced? Was it the parents whose argument was compelling or doctors who saw a means to get noteriety through experimental medical research? Why didn't the ethics committee say - No way!? The parents could have been dissuaded from doing this innumerable times alog the way, but were they?

    Is what happened to Ashley indicative of what our society would do to any little girl like Ashley or an aberration?

    Susan
    Ashley is a little girl worth knowing about:http://www.ashleyx.info

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young
    I disagree with Leif and other discussants who believe that the parents or doctors should be punished. I don't think that Ashley has been "mutilated". I believe that the intentions of both the doctors and parents were well-meaning. What is done has been done. The goal of the discussion is not to punish the doctors or parents. It is to discuss the issues so that better decisions are made in the future.
    Wise - to take away body parts inside or out for some is not good, if doc’s think that is Ok I will be sceptical for the next anaesthesia I will have say when the cure comes around wondering how I will wake up. This will be my choice though; did the kid here have those, if any? Please don’t start sympathizing with the parents and doc’s here. They took of body parts inside/out for no reason. Maybe for a discussion at best.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDnemesis
    Is what happened to Ashley indicative of what our society would do to any little girl like Ashley or an aberration?

    Susan
    This is not an abortion, get real.

  9. #609
    Leif,

    IF the doctors considered this a unique situation, never to be repeated that would put it in a somewhat different light (still unacceptable to me) than if as they did open this up as a means other parents could address the issues of care in their children.

    I do not believe that anticipation of Ashley possibly having breast cancer, uterine cancer, painful menstruation, or anything else warrants what was done to her, but these doctors seemed to believe it did.

    Now a waiting list for simialr treatment exists. Will they do it again? That is what most concerns me.

    Ashley is loved. Her parents may have been misguided, but what is done is done. They cannot do it again. What is accomplished by punishing the parents? Several children, not just Ashley would have to go into care. How canthat possibly be good for the children?

    The focus must be on the future. Never again.
    Susan
    Ashley is a little girl worth knowing about:http://www.ashleyx.info

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Leif
    Wise - to take away body parts inside or out for some is not good, if doc’s think that is Ok I will be sceptical for the next anaesthesia I will have say when the cure comes around wondering how I will wake up. This will be my choice though; did the kid here have those, if any? Please don’t start sympathizing with the parents and doc’s here. They took of body parts inside/out for no reason. Maybe for a discussion at best.
    Leif,

    There are circumstances where body parts should be removed and parents have to make the decision for children. As you know, I don't believe that the parents and the doctors made the right decision and the normal safeguards to protect the child were not sufficient. But, this does not mean that the parents or the doctors should be punished. That would be counterproductive and I suggest that you don't know enough of the situation to reach the conclusion that the parents are unfit parents.

    Wise.

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