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Thread: KIDNEY STONES & UTI

  1. #1
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    KIDNEY STONES & UTI

    I am quadriplegic level c5-6 with kidney stones. I have had UTI since July. Have been treated with cipro, macrodanton, keflex and vanco - allergic reactions to all and no relief from UTI.

    Heard about another quad with chronic bladder infection who does a bladder wash with antibiotics. My urologist told me he was unable to get hold of the type of antibiotics used for the bladder wash and recommended I use a solution of water and white wine vinegar twice each day. I did just that last Friday at noon and at midnight. Within half an hour of the second bladder wash I was having chills. I was violently ill for the next three days with vomiting, diarrhea, chills, sweating, spasms, pain and fever.

    I have had a sonogram and blood work within the past two weeks - no kidney infection, but kidney stones.

    My doctor told me there is nothing more he can do for me and to seek alternative medicine. Can anyone help?

  2. #2
    Guest
    Ellen...this is long...get out your specs!

    My husband had repeated uti's for over a year...his urologist knew he had kidney stones, but kept saying "he wanted to watch them"...I don't know how many times we ended up going to the ER in the middle of the night...diagnosis...UTI...we kept thinking...couldn't the stones be the problem?..but the urologist had said, wait and watch. An ER doctor one night told us, yes, the stones could be the problem and most likely were. We decided at that point to change urologists...the ER doctor referred us to several and thankfully the one we picked was great! I credit him with saving my husband's life, or at the "least" his kidney. On his first visit we found that his right kidney was almost completely blocked due to SEVERAL JELLY BEAN SIZE STONES lodged in his ureter. I'm not exaggerating...I didn't know they COULD get that big, but the doctor showed us the images and when we questioned why the stones showed up so large, he said, because that is the size they ARE! Needless to say, he had my husband in the hospital ASAP for surgery...my husband remembers the doctor showing him what he removed after the surgery...a handful of what looked like pieces of rotten teeth...after the surgery he passed particles of stones for a couple of weeks (the doctor said this was normal). My husband went back in 6 months...he had stones again...not so bad this time, caught early, but had to have the surgery again. Anyway, since he got the stone problem corrected he did not have another UTI for over two years. He got one recently but I'm sure it's because he works too much and forgets to drink...he's improving that since the UTI! Anyway, I don't know why some doctors don't automatically remove stones in a paralyzed person. To me, that would be so critical for a person without normal sensation. I don't think "passing a stone" should be an option for someone who can't even feel what is going on in much of their body. Anyway, I am sure you will get better info from the SCI Nurses or Dr. Young, but when I saw your post, my heart leapt. I wish you well. Take care! Carol

  3. #3
    what comes to my mind is why you would ever put a solution like white wine vinegar into the bladder. biologically it is a "filthy" solution containing who knows what contaminants and in my opinion, should not be instilled into the bladder. it is chock full of organisms as well.

    your md recommended this?

  4. #4
    If you have stones in your kidney, they need to be removed. They will eventually damage kidney tissue and can even destroy the entire kidney.

    It is impossible to get rid of kidney stones by irrigating the bladder. I suspect that you have a significant amount of reflux of urine from your bladder to your kidney, which would increase your risk for stones, and also cause you to get infections (such as your recent severe UTI) from irrigating and pushing infected urine from your bladder up your ureters to your kidneys.

    Stones are full of bacteria and keep the urine colonized with that bacteria. There is no antibiotic that can get into the stone and kill these bacteria, so the stones have to be removed properly. Stones can be removed one of 3 ways (and must be properly evaluated to determine which way is the correct way for your specific stone):

    1) ESWL (external shock wave lithotripsy). This must be done in a special center where you are put in a bath of water and shock waves break up the stone so the fragments are small enough to wash out of your kidney. At our hospital we have a remote service that brings the lithotripser to us for treatment of patients (in a trailer) when we need it. Hospitalization is usually needed as this must be accompanied by close monitoring and IV antibiotics for several days.

    2) Irrigating the stone through a nephrostomy tube. Small stones can sometimes be dissolved by placing a small catheter (in interventional radiology) into the kidney from your flank. A solution (usually Renecidin) is used to continuously flush the stone, and may dissolve it enough to pass. This must be done in the hospital and may take several days or even weeks to be successful. AD is common and must be watched for and controlled.

    3) Open kidney surgery. Here the physician must cut into your side and into the kidney to remove the stone. This is a last resort if the other two techniques are not feasible or unsuccessful.

    Are you seeing a urologist who knows something about SCI? If not, you need to get a new doctor, even if you have to travel some to get the right treatment. You don't want to risk your kidneys like this. No stone should be left in place in someone with a SCI.

    Since you are from Dixon, I would recommend going to either Sacramento or to the Bay Area for treatment. In Sacramento, look into UC Davis Medical Center, and call the deparment of urology for information.

    (KLD)

  5. #5
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    Nurse

    My husband's stone removal (I'd said surgery earlier, but I suppose it was more a proceedure than a surgery)was done by using a laser to break the stones up and then the doctor removed them...I'm not sure how...I mean, I know where they came OUT, I just don't know how the doctor TOOK them out...anyway, is a laser proceedure like this not the common one? I just assumed it was. Maybe the doctor had to do it this way because the stones were so large and because his kidney was blocked so time was of the essence? I was just curious. I didn't realize there were so many ways to remove stones until I read your post. Thank you! Carol

    [This message was edited by Piglet on 10-08-03 at 01:10 PM.]

  6. #6
    Senior Member Jeff B's Avatar
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    I agree with crags. Vinegar is not sanitary(trust me I am a biologist). You probably put yourself in some sort of shock.

    I also second the motion that you should get a new urologist. Any doctor who just gives up like that and tells you to seek alternative medicine is not someone who I would trust.

  7. #7
    Guest
    I have another question, probably will sound stupid...this is something we could have asked the doctor at the time of my husband's stone removal, but it was a stressful time and he had been very ill for a long time.. Like I said earlier, there were several extremely large stones and they were lodged in the ureter...I know how tiny the ureter is, so how could something so large (as large as a jelly bean) get inside it? Or did they get lodged there in a smaller state and THEN grew? Thank you! Carol Ellen, sorry I jacked your post, but it really got me to thinking about all this again...yes, I agree with the others, find a new doctor...that was what I was trying to relate with my story, but never quite said it! Good luck! Heal well! Carol

  8. #8
    Member Cory's Avatar
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    The times I have had stones removed they used a laser that goes up like a cystoscopy, they can go all the way through the bladder and ureter into the kidney and get everything, some of them they can grab and pull out and the rest they just break up with the laser. They don't even have to knock you out you can just get an epidural, last time they did put me out so they could hold my breath and hit them more accurately. Ive done the lythotrypsy also but it didn't completely fix it, I think its better if you have 1 giant stone as opposed to a bunch of smaller ones. I would definately find a new urologist and get those things dealt with. There are urologists that specialize in patients with neurogenic bladder and ones that just deal with kidney stones.

    [This message was edited by Cory on 10-08-03 at 02:25 PM.]

    [This message was edited by Cory on 10-08-03 at 04:10 PM.]

  9. #9
    I did not mention laser, as it is most often used in bladder stones and ureteral stones, and less often can it be used for kidney stones. If there is much ureteral scarring, neither a basket or a laser can be passed all the way to the kidney, and there is often scarring in those with stones.

    A stone ends up in the ureter when it is trying to pass, but gets stuck. If it remains there it can grown, and cause incredible pain and/or AD. It can block the ureter and cause acute or chronic hydronephrosis, which can damage the kidney very quickly.

    Annual screening for stones should be part of everyone's annual check-up if you have a SCI. This is usually done by abdominal, kidney and bladder ultrasound, although IVP or CT may be needed in addition if the ultrasound is abnormal.

    (KLD)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellen View Post
    I am quadriplegic level c5-6 with kidney stones. I have had UTI since July. Have been treated with cipro, macrodanton, keflex and vanco - allergic reactions to all and no relief from UTI.

    Heard about another quad with chronic bladder infection who does a bladder wash with antibiotics. My urologist told me he was unable to get hold of the type of antibiotics used for the bladder wash and recommended I use a solution of water and white wine vinegar twice each day. I did just that last Friday at noon and at midnight. Within half an hour of the second bladder wash I was having chills. I was violently ill for the next three days with vomiting, diarrhea, chills, sweating, spasms, pain and fever.

    I have had a sonogram and blood work within the past two weeks - no kidney infection, but kidney stones.

    My doctor told me there is nothing more he can do for me and to seek alternative medicine. Can anyone help?
    I hope I can help....you probably have struvite stones which are caused by repeated UTI's because you are infected with urease-producing bacteria (multiple types) Your urine Ph is alkaline i am sure. treatment includes removing all stone material attempt to id and treat the underlying stone forming tendency and be placed on antibiotics for 6-12 months....please do your own research however.....hope i helped

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