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Thread: suicide

  1. #201
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrb View Post
    Without going into the full post you made your lack of understanding of what a high level quad can do sums up your ignorance of the subject. I can't pick up a gun, can't do anything to stop living other than starve myself to death. Ask anyone to help me and they will be prosecuted. Suicide gets a little bit difficult given that. I do have the option of assisted suicide in Switzerland but even then need help getting there or risk those who do assist being prosecuted.

    You are welcome to your views but when it is something you have no experience of probably best to think it through before typing.
    I've been paralyzed since age 12. Am 45 today. Am paraplegic. With all due respect, I know all too well what high tetraplegics can and cannot do. I was exposed to it all at a young age. From the guy who killed his best friends in a DUI and drove a sip/puff chair and nurses who only did the minimum for him to a lady who lost control of her vehicle on a gravel road and could only blink her eyes yes or no.

    There are lots of other factors that come into play with suicide; being paralyzed, no matter your level, not being the only qualifier. So I can't express suicide ideation here without someone snearing at me because of my level? I call BS.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by lynnifer View Post
    I've been paralyzed since age 12. Am 45 today. Am paraplegic. With all due respect, I know all too well what high tetraplegics can and cannot do. I was exposed to it all at a young age. From the guy who killed his best friends in a DUI and drove a sip/puff chair and nurses who only did the minimum for him to a lady who lost control of her vehicle on a gravel road and could only blink her eyes yes or no.

    There are lots of other factors that come into play with suicide; being paralyzed, no matter your level, not being the only qualifier. So I can't express suicide ideation here without someone snearing at me because of my level? I call BS.
    The comment was aimed at someone who didn't understand that as a high level quad I don't have the option of picking up a gun. But there are some major differences. Do you have the option to commit suicide? Are you totally dependent upon others for everything in your life and that is everything? Quads don't have exclusivity on wanting to commit suicide but do have unique circumstances to overcome, I'm generalising but a para usually has independence to some degree and can feed/drink live a life with some form of physical activity. You can emphasise with me but can you honestly relate to life where the only thing you can move is your head 45? either way and 5cm forward and back or living dependent upon a machine with push fit pipes and knowing that if one comes off or vent fails you are dead (not really applicable to me other than I don't want to suffer as I die) or living with someone next to you 24/7 including watching you sleep just in case that vent fails? I've never been alone since my accident! How many times have you asked for a vent switching off, how many times have you asked your wife to switch It off? Or discussed taking you to Switzerland and helping you end it? I might be wrong but just because two people share degrees of paralysis doesn't give insight into other factors.

    I'm not snearing at paras far from it, I'm fortunate that someone does my bowels as I think that I would struggle with that one if a lower injury, lucky I don't have sensation so can't feel pain that I could with a lower injury, don't worry about my shoulders wearing out pushing my chair, don't have to transfer with the risks of falling. I'm certain that there are other things I'm not aware of and never can be but I can relate to a desire not to live.

  3. #203
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    At 12 I was incapable of empathy .. but I was smart enough to know what was practically lost (not emotionally). When I was first paralyzed, I could not hold my head up or suck the spit back into my mouth (drooled) for the first five days. At the time, I did not know that I would get better or what was happening so yes in fact I can relate.

    I do not deny that you have it tough .. very .. but I lost virginity paralyzed and never danced with a boy at high school or fumbled in the back seat of a car .. never married or had children. I don't want to play who has it worse but all paralysis sucks, truly. It affected my family and teenage years negatively, completely.

    As for the second paragraph, yes, it's like losing things all over again once complications really set in after 20, 30yrs.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

  4. #204
    I don't think that anyone has it easy no matter what the level of injury and I can't imagine what it is like to be injured so young. I'm "lucky" to have lived a life doing what I wanted, achieved goals and have fantastic friends. Whenever I meet my younger SCI friends I honestly don't know how they do it and I admire their internal strength. I can't imagine what it is like trying to build a life from teenage years on, wouldn't know where to start or how to cope emotionally. I don't think level of injury is the factor though, it is an age thing.

    The biggest difference para/quad for me is the emotional one, simple things like when my father in law died I couldn't cuddle or hold my wife. Her climbing on my bed, lying next to me and lifting my arm over her isn't comforting. My cat got knocked over and killed, I hadn't been able to touch him since returning home and my wife brought him in and all I could do was have him rubbed on my face, the only place I have sensation. Parts of life few would ever think about.

    Moving away from the topic here but I do believe places like CareCure should be able to discuss suicide as part of the care aspect, not everyone wants advice on how to do it but do want to know if others go through the same thoughts and that they aren't alone, which they aren't. If you really want advice on how to there are the exit forums which cater for that. It isn't about quad/para although the differences do need to be recognised but letting someone who is struggling know others go through the same. Anyone who has or is still going through it has a valid contribution to make.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
    So far we?ve been told (by folks with suicide ideation) in this thread to:

    - Leave guns out of it

    - Leave God out of it

    - Leave paraplegics out of it


    In reverse order:


    - Nobody thinks being a high quad vs a para are close to the same things. That doesn?t mean high quads have some kind of monopoly on the topic of suicide. Certainly not on the point of whether or not it?s a valid topic at a place dedicated to Caring for (and Curing) the living.

    - Heaven forbid anyone find a reason to live, even if it is a fantasy.

    - If someone?s life isn?t SO miserable that it hasn?t even surpassed their fear of guns, or of leaving a mess, I find it incredibly unlikely it is SO miserable that it has authentically surpassed their fear of death/survival instincts. Guns are ideal tools for ending a life. Obviously. It?s their one job. Insisting on avoiding them belies an inauthenticity to the desire IMO.


    Seriously, if anyone really wants to kill themselves, if they really want to die, if life has become so miserable that it overcomes their survival instinct, then they should be (and feel) free do it. It is our natural right to dispose of (or live) our lives. Period.

    But, equally seriously, all the excuse making and qualifications posited in this thread strike me as little more than a circle jerk of misery and enabling.

    Do it, or don?t. Get help, or don?t. Either way, this site isn?t the right place for either, IMO. There is real legal liability in helping someone commit suicide, and there is real expertise necessary to counsel someone teetering on the edge. This place doesn?t need to former and doesn?t have the latter.

    You have no idea what you’re talking about? Not even in the slightest, still You write on the topic in such a dogmatic way it’s pathetic frankly. Guns... for #### sakes really!? How the hell is any high-level complete quadriplegic even going to begin utilizeing a gun? Most idiotic thing I‘ve ever heard, but then again from the position of a paraplegic which has a myriad of ways to end ones life ( if they desire) how would they be able to possibly comprehend the complexities of scenarios when people don’t have such a luxurious position. Ventilator dependent quadriplegics are hardly ever alone, even as a complete C5 the Most plausible and in most cases only option really is starvation! Which we know, well you probably don’t... but many quadriplegics have resorted too. Hanging yourself is luxurious, shooting yourself is luxurious, getting access to a Swiss cocktail mixing it and taking it yourself is a luxury, etc. A luxury in which you possess, as do all Paraplegics and low cervical injuries/very incomplete injuries: thats why it is a very rational thing to say leave paraplegics out of it you can do it any fucking way you want to it’s really no different then being able bodied So what’s to discuss it self-explanatory, with your situation you’re exactly right you want to do it, do it - it’s a simple as that!

    However evidently there is an aspect to this sombre topic that you are utterly ignorant to as usual! As a paraplegic or an able bodied person that can kill themselves by throwing themselves over a balcony, shooting, hanging, cutting, drugs etc. etc. You all can do so in the blink of an eye whenever they want! Which means In the event that say has had a troubling. Of time, and finally one day everything builds up and they enter into a completely irrational state of mind at that point suicide is easy because they are completely overcome with emotion (this is when the vast majority of people commit suicide in these kinds of crazed; irrational states), and in terms of options: the buffet is wide open 24\7! The only really accessible option for quadriplegics ( aside from absolutely extraordinarily rare circumstances, such as being completely alone near a bridge that has no kind of barrier and is high enough to get the job done, or strapped in their heavy chair and access to deep water again with no kind of barrier and no one to intervene [High quadriplegic injuries do not have much privacy, for the most severe they have 24\7 caregiving, can’t even open the back door to get to the hypothetical pool etc.]) is starvation, this is something that takes months to actually kill you! Also you will have to go through a process, DNR, Your families going to know and it’s going to take you months to die so you are going to have to deal with them along with caregivers and/or anyone responsible for you, medical practitioners can intervene and A quadriplegic is absolutely helpless to do anything about that! And most pertinent you’re not going to be able to go down that route when you’re having a hissy fit like almost all suicides. You are going to have to literally plan and arrange everything, quite extensively actually ( it usually starts with a DNR, then legal issues, then dealing with family, and in many cases quadriplegics literally just enter a institution like a group home to simply starve themselves as any compassionate human is not going to subject people they care about/care about them and make them watch you right away for the next few months eventually becoming delirious), and then you’re going to have to commit to the Long extremely arduous process of starving: again which is going to be as long as three months, but no less then one! Of all the people that I have read about that had the conviction to go this route none of them were able to fully commit to dehydration, they would take at least little droplets of water periodically. And honestly who can blame them!

    overall Oddity take your paraplegic independent lifestyle and driven dogmatic and erroneously ignorant banter somewhere else if you don’t like the topic, you have no idea how intricate this really is! I don’t give a shit if you know some quadriplegics! If you think it’s as simple as do it or don’t do it, you are such a lucky SOB, like I truly envy you! And if you think it’s as Simple as getting help or don’t get help implying that getting “help” Is going to be of benefit for each individual that finds themselves in the most catastrophic of conditions! (In which you have no comprehension of) you are talking 100% out of your ass! The vicissitudes of life are extremely complex incommensurable really — they lead to a completely incomprehensible amount of Individuals with - again - innumerable amount of differences ( genetic factors also obviously playing a role In the creation of an individual, but I believe much of what we encounter and enjoy, Fleurish with life shapes the individual as well) which is going to affect whether a quadriplegic (A.k.a. completely dependent extremely limited lifestyle) is not just suitable but possible for said individuals. Basically when 90%+ of someones body is paralyzed it’s quite possible depending on the individuals Pejoratives, predilections, proclivities etc. that there is nothing in this world that will bring them any genuine pleasure, enjoyment Or satisfaction, let alone something that they can do on a regular basis and accomplish on their own and not having to spend a ridiculous amount of money ( paying for specialized Equipment, paying for caregivers/therapist and/or relying on a friend: to get to a specific area, use said equipment, etc is not going to be something that’s plausible to be done on a regular basis with any kind of certainty... and at the end of the day is that individual going to feel like they are doing anything themselves with everything considered). And psychiatry is not a sound science it’s an applied science borderlining a pseudoscience! Depression is far too vague of a diagnosis and Beyond our capability in the entire field of modern medicine to properly diagnose let alone treat for each and every scenario/individual.
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 11-02-2017 at 01:44 AM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by lynnifer View Post
    I've been paralyzed since age 12. Am 45 today. Am paraplegic. With all due respect, I know all too well what high tetraplegics can and cannot do. I was exposed to it all at a young age. From the guy who killed his best friends in a DUI and drove a sip/puff chair and nurses who only did the minimum for him to a lady who lost control of her vehicle on a gravel road and could only blink her eyes yes or no.

    There are lots of other factors that come into play with suicide; being paralyzed, no matter your level, not being the only qualifier. So I can't express suicide ideation here without someone snearing at me because of my level? I call BS.
    With all due respect you have been paralyzed as a paraplegic since you were 12 zero experience as living as a quadriplegic, you have never been a high quadriplegic yourself, therefore you cannot possibly comprehend the full intricacies of living in such a state! I don’t care how many quadriplegics you know… That’s ridiculous thing for you to say. Also when it comes to high cervical injury‘s they are so complicated, so severe and erratic; secondary complications ( or lack of) and severity can make two C5s two completely different disabilities ( literally the most minor of functions, or tiniest of spasms, difference of pressure in the bladder, etc etc can have the most dramatic of impacts. Just one of multiple examples, I cannot pronate my right forearm the implications of this could fill Pages and I continuously find new issues heavily severe to minor in comparison, Basically my life would be completely different if I could pronate my right forearm like I can my left)

    Mrb Is 100% correct! It is incontrovertible, the only person that would debate it is someone that comes from an ignorant perspective because they haven’t lived in such a state themselves. You could know 100 different quadriplegics and that is not even going to remotely give you proper comprehension to the minutiae or even the extremes of living with such a condition, end it certainly isn’t ever going to give you a proper reflection of the multitude of limitations you run into, the feelings, understandings, entrapment, helplessness, defenseless, undignified… just far too numerous and complicated No secondhand knowledge is going to even remotely give you any real perspective! I live it and I can barely explain it, it’s been almost 6 years and I still find new feelings and in fact new limitations that I didn’t even think about on a regular basis... not to be arrogant but my abstract thinking is also above superior. I’m shocked about what you said it’s unbelievable You have no idea what high quadriplegic can or can’t do, it’s not even remotely that simple and the fact that you stated that only solidifies how little you know!
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 11-02-2017 at 01:30 AM.

  7. #207
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Two quads I know killed themselves. One drove off the end of a dock and drowned. The other shot out in front of a bus. Yet a third was an accident (we think) as he was hit by a train .. his little caster wheel got caught in the tracks.

    It's not impossible.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by lynnifer View Post
    Two quads I know killed themselves. One drove off the end of a dock and drowned. The other shot out in front of a bus. Yet a third was an accident (we think) as he was hit by a train .. his little caster wheel got caught in the tracks.
    It's not impossible.
    Err, not everyone has those options! Did you read the bit where I said I am never alone? I've got a support worker within a few metres of me 24/7! They might notice me heading along a jetty or trying to drive in front of a bus. That is assuming that I have enough movement to drive a wheelchair ,I can but my friend who is C1 can't he gets pushed everywhere, maybe his support worker has a death wish as well. And that is the problem, assumptions made that because one quad can do it others have the same ability, we don't. Ideally I would chose to die with my loved ones around me,preferably using a similar procedure to Dignitas/Lifecircle or how you carry out executing prisoners with an injection and at home not driving off the end of a pier dropping into water which immediately goes through the hole in my neck and fills my lungs with water. And the method of doing it is key to a lot of people, not wanting a messy death for your family to find you, not wanting to suffer. Visit any of the forums dedicated to suicide and you can soon see how many are looking for that.

    There are a lot of factors to consider, method, who finds you, impact on your family, discussion you have before making the decision. Few people have been there, I have, discussed with my wife and family before asking for vent to be switched off in hospital and requesting to be sedated only to go through that difficult decision making and discussion with family and be refused as it was felt that I lacked mental capacity.

    You are right, it isn't impossible but can be very difficult!

  9. #209
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    I'm coming to this late but right after an elderly loved one with stage 4 cancer and Alzheimer's killed herself by downing a bunch of morphine provided by hospice for pain relief. The fact that anyone is prohibited from ending their lives on their own terms is wrong. I'm not sure how one avoids suicides by temporarily-depressed people though. Perhaps legalizing assisted suicide for terminal illnesses - and paralysis clearly is terminal if a patient has the right to refuse treatment.
    T3 complete since Sept 2015.

  10. #210
    You need a reasonably large supply of most drugs capable of killing you. The problem for any high quad is you don't have them, your support workers do and have to account for you taking your meds especially controlled meds. Mine record every capsule or tablet I am given and every one I refuse.

    It is possible to control assisted suicide, both Dignitas and Lifecircle have strict conditions and you are assessed before the procedure. They allow paralysed people the criteria is based upon suffering not just terminal illness. You can use advance directives to prevent treatment, I've done that, my doctor prepared the directive after discussion with me, she confirmed that I have mental capacity at the time of signing and my wishes should be respected. It still comes down to what you are prepared to go through to die. Last year I had a pleural effusion and needed vent plus oxygen and constant suctioning. Thought that I could handle death but choking on my own phlegm was not easy to do. Had one night where my sats dropped into high 50's and thought that it would be the end but my body decided to fight. Sats came back up and it was back to choking on my own phlegm again. After days of this I agreed to go into hospital where my chest was drained. Not what I wanted but I couldn't face death like that. Weak.

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