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Thread: suicide

  1. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by mrb View Post
    I was told when first injured that if I chose to they would switch my vent off, spent 4 months debating with myself and asked for it switching off. They then brought 2 psychologists in, 1 hr exam by each and 1 concluded that I did not have capacity to switch my vent off. Evidently I hadn't had long enough to adjust! 4 years on I still want the same thing!

    Almost the same thing happened with me, except that by the time I decided to unplug I got strong enough to breathe without the damn thing (C3/4 complete). Can't stray very far from my cough assist machine though. I read over your posts, so I don't have much to say except I feel exactly the same way you do. I'm considering stopping eating and drinking at some point. Apparently it can be rather peaceful. All I know is there's no way I'm growing old like this.

  2. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by funklab View Post
    If that is a one liner, it's a good one.

    If someone says they're really depressed and suicidal, but at the same time declines psychotherapy and antidepressants they are not making a logical choice. These two treatments are proven to improve depression regardless of the cause. So unless you enjoy being depressed there's no reason not to give them a shot. Like I said a few posts before the one you quoted, if you're not killing yourself tonight you should be in the doctor's office on monday asking for zoloft and a referral.

    It's like someone complaining that they have high blood pressure and not doing anything about it. Regardless of why your blood pressure is high exercise and drugs will improve it. If you choose to reject those options but still want to complain about your high blood pressure you're making an illogical choice and maybe you should think about the reasons why you are making that illogical choice.

    Living as a quadriplegic is not a logical or rational choice to ALOT of people. These studies your citing The conclude antidepressants and psychology are proven to improve depression; incorrect. First of all they did not evaluate patients with high cervical spine record injuries! Second of all there are a plethora of studies that show any depressants are as effective as a sugar pill with the placebo effect, depression is not a realistic diagnosis it is far too vague...I have no respect for such a preposterous conclusion.

    Here's what you're not understanding, the vast majority of able-bodied people would rather die than be a dependent cripple. However that changes, obviously; once they are unfortunate enough to have A catastrophic injury. Usually they will adapt, and live a "lifestyle" suited to their disability, but there are a plethora of people that still think fuck that I'd like to be dead. Many of them find creative ways to do it, others show ukdaunting conviction and as you say "resolved" and resort to starvation which as we've seen a few quadriplegics have gone this route takes far longer than three weeks.

    A person is not "depressed" because they would rather be dead than be a quadriplegic that's a fact! High quadriplegia is an adhorent Way to live, there is nothing in logical or irrational choosing death over such a lifestyle. People just desperately want to classify and document things etc. so they make bullshit far too vague diagnoses such as depression and allocate them even where they don't belong which is the case in this kind of situation. Elderly people, even disabled almost unanimously agreed that once they lose the ability to look after themselves they would like to die; we found that out as a country when we were doing surveys well assisted suicide was being legalized, nobody bats an eye, there perfectly rational conclusion. Oh but bump your spinal cord, become completely dependent, choose death oh you must be depressed...The absurdity is hilarious.

    By these idiot doctors, ( desperately trying to classify everything, in a field that is completely out of its league whether it's neurology, urology, whatever but especially neurology and of course psychology) logic, I went from a happy supremely healthy 20-year-old to a not just severely disabled person but also severely depressed almost instantaneously. Because when the accident happened I managed to keep consciousness, and I begged the motherfucker that found me to kill me when he refused I begged him to leave me there to die or should I say let nature take it's course. That depression though they can catch you right quick, like a common cold... wait wait, I'm sure the explanation would be oh you haven't had enough time to "cope" which given the situation extensionally means develop a glorified Stockholm syndrome.


    This is a good one liner that the pessimistic-realist in me really appreciates after all the bullshit I've been exposed too: coping is existentially socially glorified defeatism.
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 04-18-2017 at 06:24 PM.

  3. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by funklab View Post
    One month generally isn't enough time for an SSRI like citalopram to start working on the receptors in your brain. If you were smiling and happy and feeling drugged out during that time it is overwhelmingly more likely that you were experiencing a placebo effect because someone told you the medication was going to make you happy and you thought it would make you "drugged out". In my experience with hundreds of people on SSRIs (as well as myself) it does not make you feel "drugged out" or that you are not yourself.

    Also while I agree it doesn't sound like you are depressed, it also doesn't sound like you are suicidal. A reassuring knowledge that you can end your life if and when you feel the need is far different than hoarding pills because you plan to overdose on Thursday or buying a gun because you're ready to die.


    *edit* also SSRIs don't make you happy. Not being depressed is way different than making you happy. Cocaine and heroin make you happy... for the moment.

    Antidepressants are a bullshit drug, that are going to have unknown implications for the future of humanity especially considering they are handed out like skittles as depression is diagnosed like a golden sticker is given out in fourth grade. The placebo effect is essential to antidepressants, many studies have proven this they just get swept under the rug by the pharmaceutical companies. Intensive exercise, a very nutritious and balanced diet, certain supplements like Niacin and A progressive and especially natural lifestyle will cure any depression. One pharmaceutical companies will not make billions off that, two people are lazy and cannot commit and of course in our situation the intensive exercise, and very active natural lifestyle is completely impossible for the higher injuries. However I have been fortunate enough to get a very healthy rigourous diet and I have noticed a lot of mental clarity and cognitive benefit, you overall just feel better. I've also been on antidepressants for months, to humour fools. Drugs do not have a potent affect on me mostly in general, also I am mostly Irish so psychoanalysis, the out of its league pseudoscience that it is it's not supposed to be very effective on me, according to Froude we are impervious to it.

    To your second paragraph: isn't that funny, it's highly ironic really they aren't that much different other than timing and preparation. Really the big difference is that it's more socially accepted. Ever since I became a gimp my life has been burdened by the vicissitudes of society, and it is infuriating. Especially pandering to those weak and fragile defensive fucking scum gimps preaching about how assisted suicide essentially makes them feel bad! Vermin.

    Honestly severely disabled people that still have optimism or even trust in "modern medicine" blow my mind, I just must have gotten unlucky with multiple secondary complications that has led me to deal with a lot of doctors and specialists. Guess what those scans they do, half the time it doesn't even give them a truly conclusive answer, actually I should say more than half the time.
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 04-18-2017 at 06:15 PM.

  4. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Moto2Mini View Post
    Almost the same thing happened with me, except that by the time I decided to unplug I got strong enough to breathe without the damn thing (C3/4 complete). Can't stray very far from my cough assist machine though. I read over your posts, so I don't have much to say except I feel exactly the same way you do. I'm considering stopping eating and drinking at some point. Apparently it can be rather peaceful. All I know is there's no way I'm growing old like this.
    Other quadriplegics have gone that route, it's not peaceful at all, it may be for some once they become delirious but it's a myth that you'll be dead in three weeks. Even with our atrophied and rotten bodies it could take months sorry it will take months usually at least three even more. A quadriplegic in Quebec did it recently and it took over three months and finally the doctor had mercy and finished him off (assisted suicide is legal here keep in mind, even though; Like always the Liberals fucked it up). I'm starting to realize that it is fairly common, the news just obviously doesn't report on such things most of the time. Keep in mind that this entire time you will be pissing and shitting yourself, but you'll be too weak for them to get you up to properly clean you it's a very ugly long death… You need to realize this before you consider.
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 04-18-2017 at 06:18 PM.

  5. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    Living as a quadriplegic is not a logical or rational choice to ALOT of people. These studies your citing The conclude antidepressants and psychology are proven to improve depression; incorrect. First of all they did not evaluate patients with high cervical spine record injuries! Second of all there are a plethora of studies that show any depressants are as effective as a sugar pill with the placebo effect, depression is not a realistic diagnosis it is far too vague...I have no respect for such a preposterous conclusion.
    Your observation that depression is not a realistic diagnosis is a fair one. When I say depression, what I mean is Major Depressive Disorder according to the DSM5 manual. Still, a poor and overly broad definition of what is obviously a more complex problem that has multiple etiologies. The problem is with regard to the research this is the best definition we have at the moment as we do not know how to distinguish the causes of depression. It is very unlikely that your suffering and that of a college freshman who's boyfriend just broke up with her are comparable, nonetheless this is the definition the research is done on and thus is all we have to go on. I am certainly unaware of any studies suggesting spinal cord injury patients do not respond to antidepressant medications so while there's no reason to think your depression (being admittedly different) would respond the same, there is no reason to think it would not respond the same either. Thus with the minimal risk to yourself (since your preferred alternative choice is death, which is currently not an option available to you), it would seem the logical choice to give it a shot.

    I would counter your argument about the inefficacy of antidepressants with the fact that the FDA does not approve drugs unless they clearly demonstrate better efficacy than placebo (sugar pill) in large randomized controlled trials. Here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15131492 is a link to an article that reviewed multiple studies on two of the SSRIs. I would also refer you to the Star*D trial which indicates that the vast majority of people with depression get better with antidepressant treatment.


    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    A person is not "depressed" because they would rather be dead than be a quadriplegic that's a fact! High quadriplegia is an adhorent Way to live, there is nothing in logical or irrational choosing death over such a lifestyle. People just desperately want to classify and document things etc. so they make bullshit far too vague diagnoses such as depression and allocate them even where they don't belong which is the case in this kind of situation. Elderly people, even disabled almost unanimously agreed that once they lose the ability to look after themselves they would like to die; we found that out as a country when we were doing surveys well assisted suicide was being legalized, nobody bats an eye, there perfectly rational conclusion. Oh but bump your spinal cord, become completely dependent, choose death oh you must be depressed...The absurdity is hilarious.

    By these idiot doctors, ( desperately trying to classify everything, in a field that is completely out of its league whether it's neurology, urology, whatever but especially neurology and of course psychology) logic, I went from a happy supremely healthy 20-year-old to a not just severely disabled person but also severely depressed almost instantaneously. Because when the accident happened I managed to keep consciousness, and I begged the motherfucker that found me to kill me when he refused I begged him to leave me there to die or should I say let nature take it's course. That depression though they can catch you right quick, like a common cold... wait wait, I'm sure the explanation would be oh you haven't had enough time to "cope" which given the situation extensionally means develop a glorified Stockholm syndrome.


    This is a good one liner that the pessimistic-realist in me really appreciates after all the bullshit I've been exposed too: coping is existentially socially glorified defeatism.
    I cannot argue with your logic here. For all that we know and don't know it's likely that you are correct and you are not depressed at all, but entirely, rationally suicidal. However as I've stated previously, if life is only misery and suffering and is not worth living, but you are not yet ready or are not physically or logistically able to kill yourself, what is the harm in attempting to feel better? I'm sure there is reasoning behind your wish not to be treated, but I do not recall seeing it. Even if there was a 99% chance that medications, therapy, etc would do nothing to make you feel better, what is the harm in trying?

  6. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by funklab View Post
    Your observation that depression is not a realistic diagnosis is a fair one. When I say depression, what I mean is Major Depressive Disorder according to the DSM5 manual. Still, a poor and overly broad definition of what is obviously a more complex problem that has multiple etiologies. The problem is with regard to the research this is the best definition we have at the moment as we do not know how to distinguish the causes of depression. It is very unlikely that your suffering and that of a college freshman who's boyfriend just broke up with her are comparable, nonetheless this is the definition the research is done on and thus is all we have to go on. I am certainly unaware of any studies suggesting spinal cord injury patients do not respond to antidepressant medications so while there's no reason to think your depression (being admittedly different) would respond the same, there is no reason to think it would not respond the same either. Thus with the minimal risk to yourself (since your preferred alternative choice is death, which is currently not an option available to you), it would seem the logical choice to give it a shot.

    I would counter your argument about the inefficacy of antidepressants with the fact that the FDA does not approve drugs unless they clearly demonstrate better efficacy than placebo (sugar pill) in large randomized controlled trials. Here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15131492 is a link to an article that reviewed multiple studies on two of the SSRIs. I would also refer you to the Star*D trial which indicates that the vast majority of people with depression get better with antidepressant treatment.




    I cannot argue with your logic here. For all that we know and don't know it's likely that you are correct and you are not depressed at all, but entirely, rationally suicidal. However as I've stated previously, if life is only misery and suffering and is not worth living, but you are not yet ready or are not physically or logistically able to kill yourself, what is the harm in attempting to feel better? I'm sure there is reasoning behind your wish not to be treated, but I do not recall seeing it. Even if there was a 99% chance that medications, therapy, etc would do nothing to make you feel better, what is the harm in trying?
    That's just it, there in lies the fucking convoluted ridiculous nature of depression and it's diagnosis, it's all bullshit; like you said it's just based on what we know now, and that's not much! They throw in a person that suffers a break up and doesn't get over it within a "reasonable" amount of time ( The amount of time being problematic or reasonable is yet again subjective) with elderly people that have lost everyone they've ever known in life and conclude: depression. BULLSHIT!

    I despise that rationale, "it's the best we have, so Best we use what we have "no if the foundation of something is completely flawed, naturally one should disregard it... but the key factor here is we are talking about the second biggest market in the world; don't tell me you're na?ve enough to not consider that a factor?

    You cited studies for anti- depression drugs ( we've already established that they don't even know exactly what they're trying to treat, so why the fuck would I waste my time reading a study on a drug that doesn't even address a conclusive fully understood condition??? There's been multiple small scale trials that have shown that the placebo affect is equally as effective at treating anti-depression, the key factor is they don't get the funding and most importantly the bigwigs pushing those studies-no profit or glory at the end of that one). Let's just skip that garbage and go to the root of the issue: the brain, modern medicine as a whole neurology psychology, etc. pick your field they're all in over their head they do not know what they're talking about it's just a best guess scenario. Not too long ago a man went to a hospital in America I believe, complaining about arm pain they ruled out all the options and eventually did a CT scan of his head. Turns out 40% of his brain is just gone, here is the fun part according to "the map of the brain" he was missing some of the most important and crucial sections of the brain mostly frontal/Central lobes! yet here we have a man in his 40s, married, has a family, has a job completely normal life… Naturally the neurologist and psychologist that witness this "phenomenon" were running around like chickens with their heads cut off, over the next few days they made up some bullshit excuse and slowly waited until the Publicity of the event died off. Do you honestly believe that modern medicine knows the "perfect" hormonal and chemical balance in the brain… Ummm ha....no, first changes per individual, second they're just not capable of such difficulty understanding. Neurologist don't even fully understand what a synrix is and why it occurs; their most common treatment has an 80% likelihood the cyst will come back. But still even with its mediocre understanding, bullshit diagnosis and completely convoluted studies to support them we will risk pushing anti-depressants down the throat of one out of four Americans, we don't have the capabilities to understand what the potential impact of that will be on the human species in the future ( probably worse than all of the lead we used to use in farming, and piping etc. Until one day when we realized: oh that's stupid), we don't even have the capabilities to understand The full implications of a large oil spell. But my friend what do we know, selling antidepressants makes a lot money that is 100% conclusive, so the more the merrier as the pharmaceutical CEO would likely say.



    To answer your last question, it's quite simple antidepressants won't work on me! I don't want them to work; good luck creating any drug that is going to take my volition and individuality away from me, and make me happy living in this completely adhorrent existence ( completely antithetical to everything I enjoy, respect, value, etc. down to every principle and perspective I have) in which nothing I genuinely enjoy doing is remotely possible… that's where I just get flabbergasted, people don't realize that there are certain individuals that will lose 90% plus of their body leaving them with nothing as in literally no activity they genuinely enjoy ( I had a doctor who said that's highly unlikely, she would know right- anyways even by her logic highly unlikely but not impossible). Sex, kickboxing, powerlifting, poly metrics...basically turning myself into a weaponized machine that's where my passion lies and that's where they always will lie ( indoctrinated cripple: "oh but eventually everything goes with age", at which point I would have lived a long and 40+ years became a complete machine, completed multiple times likely became at least in the low tier professional if not in the higher levels, and still actively exercised in my older years, I know champion bodybuilders that are 70 years old, it's the bums that don't know the game that lose everything with age). Hell even if I could do all that, but had to oblige to a bowel care program done by other people I would still kill myself, that's another thing about modern medicine the last thing they care about is human dignity, and what's amazing is how many people will completely disregard dignity as well. My student nurse tells me how most of her patients just shit themselves despite being able to walk and control their sphincter function, they're just old and don't care… I always wanted to be dead before 60.

    And if I'm going to be completely honest from everything I've seen the "simpler people" tend to benefit the most from antidepressants, they are not going to think about outside factors; like what I'm talking about above^: whether it's "working" or it's a placebo effect they will take it without thought.


    One final remarks. There have been many people since I've been disabled doctors, nurses, other cripples etc. who have said "oh find a new passion", or "you will find a new passion" well it was easy to figure out why I was so abnormal being 16 and literally every day walking to the gym and then walking to boxing and then walking all the way home; now I realize why people still talk about that… Because it's rare. Long story short all of these people don't know what a passion is, as they've clearly never really had a real one.
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 04-18-2017 at 07:57 PM.

  7. #177
    Senior Member Tim C.'s Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JamesMcM;1828993]That's just it, there in lies the fucking convoluted ridiculous nature of depression and it's diagnosis, it's all bullshit; like you said it's just based on what we know now, and that's not much! They throw in a person that suffers a break up and doesn't get over it within a "reasonable" amount of time ( The amount of time being problematic or reasonable is yet again subjective) with elderly people that have lost everyone they've ever known in life and conclude: depression. BULLSHIT!
    James:
    I am completely sympathetic with your point of view.

  8. #178
    Senior Member Tim C.'s Avatar
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    There's little point to living like this lest we're doing it for other's sake.

  9. #179
    As an Apparelyzed refugee - and a formerly suicidal one at that - I'll give my opinion on this. I have a high cervical injury (C4- no vent though, thank God), about more than a year after the injury occurred I was probably the MOST suicidal I had ever been. I told a psychiatrist that I was determined to be euthanized in Europe (Belgium etc. - one of those places with a suicide clinic) and of course I was pumped full of SSRI's afterwards and declared "mentally ill". The psychiatric community doesn't really understand our grief. Suicidal thoughts are unfortunately common among high quads, though that doesn't make it "normal" it doesn't make it indicative of mental disease either.

    I at this point in my life have decided that I want to live, but I can understand those who may not want to continue.

  10. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    Antidepressants are a bullshit drug, that are going to have unknown implications for the future of humanity especially considering they are handed out like skittles as depression is diagnosed like a golden sticker is given out in fourth grade. The placebo effect is essential to antidepressants, many studies have proven this they just get swept under the rug by the pharmaceutical companies. Intensive exercise, a very nutritious and balanced diet, certain supplements like Niacin and A progressive and especially natural lifestyle will cure any depression. One pharmaceutical companies will not make billions off that, two people are lazy and cannot commit and of course in our situation the intensive exercise, and very active natural lifestyle is completely impossible for the higher injuries. However I have been fortunate enough to get a very healthy rigourous diet and I have noticed a lot of mental clarity and cognitive benefit, you overall just feel better. I've also been on antidepressants for months, to humour fools. Drugs do not have a potent affect on me mostly in general, also I am mostly Irish so psychoanalysis, the out of its league pseudoscience that it is it's not supposed to be very effective on me, according to Froude we are impervious to it.

    To your second paragraph: isn't that funny, it's highly ironic really they aren't that much different other than timing and preparation. Really the big difference is that it's more socially accepted. Ever since I became a gimp my life has been burdened by the vicissitudes of society, and it is infuriating. Especially pandering to those weak and fragile defensive fucking scum gimps preaching about how assisted suicide essentially makes them feel bad! Vermin.

    Honestly severely disabled people that still have optimism or even trust in "modern medicine" blow my mind, I just must have gotten unlucky with multiple secondary complications that has led me to deal with a lot of doctors and specialists. Guess what those scans they do, half the time it doesn't even give them a truly conclusive answer, actually I should say more than half the time.
    James we have a lot in common, and I am very skeptical about psychiatry as well for informed and experienced reason. I went through the whole psychiatry process after SCI (as an adult) and even before it (as a teen) and it did absolutely nothing for me. A matter of fact my self esteem suffered even more because the results of my psychological assessment deemed me as a being a negative person with personality problems. And it was somehow implied that my attitude and not my disability was hindering me more - which was very hurtful.

    The only thing that I an recommend to you is to pursue higher education in order to get yourself in a position of power as opposed to a position of control (living off of benefits etc.). There are other high quads who have gotten themselves out of poverty doing this and now have careers with a much higher standard of living.

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