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Thread: Can leg muscle recovery stimulate further recovery?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman
    "Dr. John McDonald, Project Walk, and other exercise based programs have shown the world that recovery can occur well after that 2 year mark when exercise is introduced. We believe that the sooner you go after regaining function through exercise, the better chance you will have of recovering significant function”

    I see where someone could miss construe the above statement, it should have been written this way:


    Dr. John McDonald, Project Walk, and other exercise based programs have shown the world that recovery can occur well after that 2 year mark when exercise is introduced.

    Project Walk believes that the sooner you go after regaining function through exercise, the better chance you will have of recovering significant function
    When I wrote "we" previously I was refering to Project Walk, not the collective group mentioned in the previous sentence.
    Edit: Dan/others..
    That study just began (Feb) it won't be over for 6 months.
    Snowman,
    How can you compare PW program to that of Dr. John McDonald?
    Like Rick and Ross said PW program has nothing in common with KKI. But yet to still insist on say that PW program is like KKI.
    Who is the PI at University of California that is doing the study with PW?
    gerry

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman
    "Dr. John McDonald, Project Walk, and other exercise based programs have shown the world that recovery can occur well after that 2 year mark when exercise is introduced. We believe that the sooner you go after regaining function through exercise, the better chance you will have of recovering significant function”

    I see where someone could miss construe the above statement, it should have been written this way:


    Dr. John McDonald, Project Walk, and other exercise based programs have shown the world that recovery can occur well after that 2 year mark when exercise is introduced.

    Project Walk believes that the sooner you go after regaining function through exercise, the better chance you will have of recovering significant function


    When I wrote "we" previously I was refering to Project Walk, not the collective group mentioned in the previous sentence.



    Edit: Dan/others..
    That study just began (Feb) it won't be over for 6 months.
    Snowman,
    For Project Walk (remember, people, this is just a gym in southern CA) to say, worse, to mislead readers of CC to believe that they are on the same level of expertise as Dr. McDonald and the rest of the scientists at Kennedy Krieger Institute’s International Center for Spinal Cord Injury is a self serving maneuver as well as a blatant lie through false advertising--- plain and simple.


    True, scientific journals have published results of controlled clinical trials conducted by Dr. McDonald demonstrating proof of his hypothesis. What data from controlled trials has Project walk generated to support this theory? Aligning yourselves with Dr. McDonald based on what is most likely some anecdotal conclusion once again demonstrates Project Walk’s pattern of false advertising for monetary gain.

    Readers, ask PW for proof of how “PW’s has shown the world that recovery can occur well after that 2 year mark when exercise is introduced”, as Snowman stated above. Since he aligns himself with the type of Proof demonstrated by John McDonald’s work, we must all ask him to provide proof of his contribution to this body of research. We know medical institutions like Shepherded, KKI, Craig, Wash U and RCI can prove their assertions with clinical data. PW, on the other hand, will sight gym members’ anecdotal, subjective personal commentary as evidence of their claims. The two bodies of proof are mutually exclusive. Kudos to PW for supporting the rehab of SCI patients as a means to more movement. Shame on PW for alluding to research never conducted on the premises and claiming alignment with other researchers for personal profit.

    Further, readers of CC, PW’s program has no similarity to the SCI program administered at KKI. Dr. McDonald’s scientific, advanced restoration therapies and clinical trials are designed to aid in restoring function as well as measure the therapies’ efficacy based on years of scientific research by some of our nations most respected medical MDs & PhDs. That type of program is in no way similar to the exercises recommended by SOME GUY IN A GYM (Snowman)!

    How does a gym compare itself to a facility with medical staff trained to address pressure sores, UTI, chemical imbalances, proper medications, just to name a few critical issues surrounding the daily care and rehabilitation needs of a person with an SCI.

    If a gym like PW is going to try and piggyback off of years of work and studies completed by world renowned MDs, PhDs like Dr. McDonald, than the PW gym should publicize data supporting their own claims specifying PW’s scientific exercise recovery studies. They should utilize specific exclusion criteria as well as scientific protocols and end points that Project Walk has sent through an RIB process destined for approval by top national and international review boards consisting of SCI PhDs & MDs before being published in a medical journal. Once completed, they may then claim to align with others conducting similar research.

    How ironic that PW aligns with Dr. McDonald without following the scientific principles of advanced restoration therapies developed by this world-renowned expert in SCI research. .

    We, the readers of CC, would also like to see PW’s scientific studies providing proof of their statement “We believe that the sooner you go after regaining function through exercise, the better chance you will have of recovering significant function”. PW has neither the creditability nor proof to state anything other than that they (PW) are a gym that SCI may use in lieu of expert care such as that provided in specialized institutions such as KKI.

    If an organization, in this case a gym, makes statements aligning themselves with experts, they should be ready to back up their claims with scientific proof. Anything less constitutes false advertising begging the question, “who gains from such cavalier claims”.
    Ross

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by dan_nc
    Ross,

    According to the PW website, they are collaborating with researchers at the University of California (UCI). To my knowledge, the results of that study have not appeared in scientific peer-reviewed journal yet. Nonetheless, the benefits of exercise for neurological recovery are documented (even in humans, not just the rats from the studies Snowman cited).
    You don’t believe everything you read do you?
    To make statements and claims with out proof is wrong.
    gerry

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by Snowman
    "Dr. John McDonald, Project Walk, and other exercise based programs have shown the world that recovery can occur well after that 2 year mark when exercise is introduced. We believe that the sooner you go after regaining function through exercise, the better chance you will have of recovering significant function”

    I see where someone could miss construe the above statement, it should have been written this way:

    Dr. John McDonald, Project Walk, and other exercise based programs have shown the world that recovery can occur well after that 2 year mark when exercise is introduced.

    Project Walk believes that the sooner you go after regaining function through exercise, the better chance you will have of recovering significant function
    When I wrote "we" previously I was refering to Project Walk, not the collective group mentioned in the previous sentence.
    Edit: Dan/others..
    That study just began (Feb) it won't be over for 6 months.


    Quote Originally Posted by gerryquicker
    Snowman,
    How can you compare PW program to that of Dr. John McDonald?
    Like Rick and Ross said PW program has nothing in common with KKI. But yet to still insist on say that PW program is like KKI.
    Who is the PI at University of California that is doing the study with PW?
    gerry
    Snowman,
    PW has not shown the world anything! Dr. McDonald is world renown as a pioneered in SCI restoration of function as well as stem cell research. McDonald's studies are easy to find and view, that is proof! Where is PW proof?
    Ross

  5. #25

    back to an earlier question...

    What do you think of this theory? Also, have you ever heard of anyone recovery use of quadriceps first before toe wiggling?

    Thanks.[/quote]

    Getting back to one of the first questions... I left rehab as a t-11,12 asia A complete and about a yr and a half later after working on hip flexors that were coming back, I began regaining some quads, and other thigh muscles. Now it's 2 1/2 yrs post and I still haven't been able to move my toes or feet at all; but I try every day.

  6. #26

    back to the topic ...

    Quote Originally Posted by darlagee22
    What do you think of this theory? Also, have you ever heard of anyone recovery use of quadriceps first before toe wiggling?

    Thanks.
    Getting back to one of the first questions... I left rehab as a t-11,12 asia A complete and about a yr and a half later after working on hip flexors that were coming back, I began regaining some quads, and other thigh muscles. Now it's 2 1/2 yrs post and I still haven't been able to move my toes or feet at all; but I try every day.
    In hospital, my nurses and therapists told me that returns might go down the cord, i.e. returns at L3, then L4, then L5 and so on. So it might make sense to recover use of quads, ankle dorsal flexors, big toe extensors, in that order. Don't really know.

    Also, on the PW site,

    At one time or another, everyone has heard of someone with SCI who could wiggle a toe. Common sense says that the toes are the farthest point from the site of the injury, so if you can move a toe, why can’t you re-teach everything in between?
    What do people think of that theory?
    Daniel

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryquicker
    Snowman,
    How can you compare PW program to that of Dr. John McDonald?
    Like Rick and Ross said PW program has nothing in common with KKI. But yet to still insist on say that PW program is like KKI.
    Who is the PI at University of California that is doing the study with PW?
    gerry
    What is a PI?
    Daniel

  8. #28
    PI= Principle Investigator

    Dr. Steven Cramer

    Ross/others:

    My reference to Dr McDonald was to his research showing that exercise benefits recovery of function in SCI. In no way was I comparing our program to his. I simply stated that Dr. McDonald, Project Walk, SCI Step, Next Steps, Neuro Institute, etc. have all taken clients who were past 2 years post injury and, using exercise, given them more function than they had previous to said exercise.

    In response to the next sentence of my original post:"We believe...."

    One study showing the benefits of early intervention

    Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 2005 Mar;86(3):512-6. Related Articles, Links


    Early versus delayed inpatient spinal cord injury rehabilitation: an Italian study.

    Scivoletto G, Morganti B, Molinari M.

    Spinal Cord Unit, IRCCS Foundation S. Lucia, Rome, Italy. g.sciovoletto@hsantalucia.it

    OBJECTIVE: To examine what effect the injury-to-rehabilitation interval has on the outcome of spinal cord injury (SCI) rehabilitation. DESIGN: Retrospective study. SETTING: Spinal unit of a large rehabilitation hospital. PARTICIPANTS: Consecutive admissions were divided into groups according to age, sex, and American Spinal Injury Association impairment grade and neurologic level of injury. The patients were matched for these variables and divided into groups according to the interval from injury to admission into acute rehabilitation. This approach resulted in 150 patients with SCI grouped into 50 comparison subgroupings. Interventions Three comparison groups-short (<30 d), medium (31-60 d), and long (>60 d) time to admission (TTA)-were evaluated for rehabilitation outcomes. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Barthel Index, Rivermead Mobility Index, Walking Index for Spinal Cord Injury, and motor scores at admission and discharge were examined. The changes and efficiencies were evaluated. RESULTS: The 3 groups were comparable for all medical and demographic characteristics as well as neurologic recovery. The 3 subgroups differed significantly in activity of daily living outcomes, with the short TTA group exhibiting higher Barthel Index raw discharge scores, score increases, and score efficiencies. CONCLUSIONS: Early rehabilitation seems to be a relevant prognostic factor of functional outcome. Rehabilitation intervention in patients with SCI should begin as soon as possible, in a specialized setting, because delay may adversely affect functional recovery.



    And one last thing...

    I apologize to the original poster that this topic has become another Project Walk attack and defend thread. If anyone has anymore questions for me about the original post I will be happy to answer them.
    Last edited by Snowman; 02-09-2006 at 07:29 PM.


    Eric Harness, CSCS
    Founder/President
    Neuro Ex, Inc
    Adaptive Performance and Neuro Recovery

  9. #29
    DarlaGee22 and Dan_NC,

    Thank you for replying to my question! Darla - it's good to know that you're getting recovery -- keep trying those feet. Dan -- thanks for letting me know about that theory -- I hope some others will comment on this. I'd like to think it's possible -- that for some poeple recovery isn't always first exhibited in the toes. I hope that the stepwise progression happens for some people.

    Snowman:

    I feel partly to blame for the recent string of messages re PW because I did reference it in my original email. I don't know much about PW or about the prior history on this site. However, I am grateful to any institution, be it a hospital, research facility, or gym, that cares about people with SCI. It seems to me there aren't enough places that believe in the potential for recovery. Hope is a good thing.

    Thanks,

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Brighter days
    I was looking at Project Walk's site, under the page The First Year Post-Injury, item #10: "If you are not stimulating your lower body, you will not regain function or use of it."

    I was intrigued by the description of how recovery sometimes takes place. According to the description, as the leg muscles gain strength, more is demanded of muscles above and below the pelvis. This stimulates the hip muscles, and recovery may occur upwards -- lower back, abs, and rest of upper body.

    What do you think of this theory? Also, have you ever heard of anyone recovery use of quadriceps first before toe wiggling?

    Thanks.
    I don't really feel like reading this whole thread, but I've been there for a few weeks and can thank them for getting me to the point where I can stand on my own for a little while and do full squats on the total gym. If I did nothing or tried it on my own I doubt I would have leg movement or trunk control at all.
    -------7-23-04----------
    C5/6- Workin' on Recovery
    www.darrentempleton.com
    www.pushtowalknj.org

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