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Thread: The joke of electrotherapy

  1. #41
    Guest
    One more thing please! In light of Scott's post stating you have an SCI yourself, I'd like to ask you if you use the device, I'm thinking that's probably a "yes", and what kind of improvements have you seen personally? And just so you know, I'm not asking you these questions to "challenge" you. I'm just interested. Thank you! Carol

  2. #42
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by ScottS:
    he mentioned Clayton Dixon. i did the majority of my rehab at VA PaloAlto along with Clay from July-December '02. as a fairly incomplete quad, Clay couldn't walk w/o a walker and a spotter, and could only manage 20-40 yards at a time.
    i know this thread has a lot of readers upset w/ DQ, but there are a few things i can attest to that may or may not help. 1st, he does have a SCI that he sustained many years ago (i don't feel it is my place to specify more than that because i have not asked his permission to do so).
    ..............................................
    Scotts,
    Thanks for your post and the information.
    So Clay Dixon was incomplete. That's what I expected. There are many people like that that get out of the wheelchair. It may take them 10 or 20 years, but eventually if they continue working hard, they get out of the chair because they have something to build on, even if it only begins with a toe or a muscle in the lower extremeties that they have voluntary control over no matter how weak. I don't believe it has to do with any machine. I think it has to do with continually trying, and using any means necessary to try to build on... sort of in a chain effect(FES or DQ's machine, forced-use therapy, pool therapy, etc). My opinion is it has to do with an individuals ability to heal and the nature of their spinal cord injury. We all know, no two are alike. I don't know how to build on something when you don't have anything to build on. My husband has a very thin sliver of spinal cord left between C7 and T1 as his neck was broken in half at that level... when a doctor views his MRI, the response is "Where is the Cord?"...it can only be seen with contrast. But I know better to say or think anything impossible. As for Don not saying anything about his spinal cord injury after so many of us have specifically asked...if you can't be straight with people, usually it's because you have something you want to hide...for whatever reason. Not attacking...just making a general statement.
    Anyway, thanks for your post.

  3. #43
    Carol, yes, I use the device everyday, though it only needs to be used every other day to achieve the maximum amount of muscle recovery possible given the conditions for each individual. But there are many factors which act to slow this rate considerably. Keep in mind, first of all, that the muscle's condition must be the result of disuse atrophy, and not denervation. Denervation would result from peripheral nerve damage like the severing of a nerve to a muscle, leaving the muscle without any nerve supply at all, whereas with atrophy the nerve fibers are there but just aren't firing. The time from injury is very important. Ideally once the victim leaves intensive care his muscles will be maintained so that should the injury be incomplete, when the nervous system again comes on line, even if only weakly, it won't have muscles weakened from disuse to act upon. As it is now, this is always the case. Consequently there are many in wheelchairs with functioning nervous systems who remain paralyzed because the cross-sectional area of their type II fibers is so diminished that they cannot use the muscle. The intent of the therapy I am touting here is to restore that fiber. Keep in mind too that there are those whose spinal injuries are complete, yet who have large sections of the spinal cord below the injury that are not damaged. This means their muscles are atrophic, and, although these muscles may never be usable, they may still be restored to the point where they look fit and circulation to them and the bone and organ proximal to them will be facilitated. Furthermore, muscles that can be used will be strengthened.
    From the time I was injured it took me 8 years to come up with this approach to treatment. It took another two decades to start seeing and experiencing the return of motor control and feeling below the level of injury. I have recovered a lot, including the ability to control urination, and to experience pleasurable genital stimulation. When I discovered this method of treatment I gave up exercising altogether, deeming it un-needed, and that was over two decades ago. I am told I look 'buff', my muscles are like rock and don't tire easily. I am convinced that if what I know now were known when I was hurt, I would never have been in a chair. I am outraged that the same people who put me there continue to disregard the role of severe atrophy in the perpetuation of paralysis following spinal cord injury, condemning yearly by their own insular obduracy thousands of people like yourself to possibly un-necessary enfeeblement. This is especially galling for the victims of stroke whose nervous systems tend to be intact and functioning but who are subjected to medieval therapies like 'induced restraint' by doctors who posture as informed and concerned yet who will do nothing to change their ways. to chance upon and develop this approach to spinal cord injuries. The story is on the web page. I was hurt at the T3-4 level by slight vertebral slippage as a result of a motorcycle accident. It took almost two decades to reach my present state of recovery. The sooner you start, the faster the results come. The healthier you become, the more accelerated is your recovery.
    The device is nothing more than a pulsed DC power supply, examples of which are available off the shelves of many electronics manufacturing firms. Do a search on google for DC power supply, and you will see how common these devices are. The trouble is that for use in restoring muscle the voltage of commercially available power supplies is either too small [being either 12, 24, or 48 volts], or too great [being in the thousands of volts]. In addition the current strengths passed are always at leas one ampere, which is far, far too much. Consequently you will find few power supplies that lie in the range of 3 to 5 watts output power. They are usually hundreds of watts in power. The device I had designed and hope to have manufactured in the next month or two, has a maximum voltage of 90 volts, a maximum current flow of only 35 thousandths of an ampere, and a power output of 5 watts maximum.
    This device is in no way like FES. FES devices, by FDA requirements, are not allowed to pass more than one half of one thousandth of an ampere. This is because of the disruptive affects of electrical charge on tissue. This limitation rules out electrochemistry, which is not possible without the passing of electrical charge. In the field of biology, even in the field of bio-electrochemistry, as you will see in the article by the Swedsh doctors on the web site, the article that deals with the destruction of benign and malignant tumors, bioelectrochemists understand how to destroy tissue with direct current, but, not having any grasp of physics and little of chemistry, they do not know that direct current also has the ability to build tissue also. Focussing only on its destructive aspects, they do not know how to limit these aspects, to reduce them, and to exploit the constructive aspects. One of the ways the destructive aspects are limited is by having a cathodic plate in contact with the skin that takes the destructive aspects before they are passed on to the body, and turns them into corrosion of the plate rather than destruction of the tissue. This is simple 'cathodic protection', a form of electrochemistry used by those concerned with reducing corrosion of metal parts on boats, for example, or on pipes placed underground. It's very simple physics, but, being physics, it is beyond the ken of biologists like Dr. Young who still measure electrical energy in joules. The device can be used on people with metal in them. Clayton Dixon has a metal rod in his neck. Amber, a quad currently doing this, has metal rods in her back for scoliosis, an orthopedic problem that can be amended by this manner of treatment merely by strengthening the muscles that attach to the spine. People who use FES, PEMS, and EMS are cautioned not to use this on muscles of the head and neck. This advice is the result of the ignorance of the promoters of those forms of electrotherapy who, if they knew what they were doing, would understand why these forms of electrical intervention are useless. Galvanic revivification or electrochemical therapy can and should be used on the muscles of the head and neck, on all muscles and organs of the body.

    Lindox, the apparatus used was just discussed. When the equipment is available there will be a link on the site for its purchase, and complete instructions for its use. In addition there will be contact addresses and a bulletin board for all those who are using it so that questions, comments, and observations of all those using the device can share with others their own experiences. What I hope to start is a sort of grass roots movement of people who, being fed up with the same old ineffective nostrums from orthodoxy, are willing to throw off the yoke of neuroscience and engage in some self-experimentation. No apparatus of this type has ever been approved by the FDA for this use. After doing a patent search I found that no one has proposed the use of electrochemistry to build muscle ever in this country. You can read why on the web site in the essay "Biology, Electromagnetism, and the Nervous System." You will see that the theory, contrary to what you say, has not ever been considered, and this despite the idea that the nervous system is electrical, being around for over a century and a half. Whenever I sought to interest the neuroscience professionals in this I have been ignored usually, sometimes insulted. My approach now, a bit abrasive it might seem to people like yourself, is reserved mostly for these same people, and for the handicapped who are stupid enough to think that these same professionals care about them rather than the perpetuation of inconsequential researches and job security in the paralysis research industry. I once sought to get attention for these ideas from the Christopher Reeve people. I was thanked for my input, and then importuned for a donation. I laugh at Christopher Reeve now and his deterioration at the hands of the people who use him to garner more research funds so that their expense accounts and useless investigations can go on without having to examine fundamentals which, if corrected, would have gotten Christopher out of a wheelchair long ago. I am quite accepting of those who wish to pursue this line of investigation, and encourage you to look at the galvanism website again and again over the next two months to see when the machines are available. You will be able to see all the instructions and information before making a purchase and trying this yourself. Don't wait for permission from the medical community to heal yourself.

  4. #44
    DQ,
    Thank you.
    I will be watching the site for more news..
    And reread it completely..I am a lay person..
    and sometimes misunderstand some of the more technical jargon..so may need to reread it
    more then once.

    Anger is such an emotional energy depletor..I try to look forward and leave the failures in
    the past to be learned from..but not to be
    relived too often.

    The world is so full of scams..empty promises..plain old cons..that we all have become wary. It seems sorting through too much poop causes you to become immune sometimes to the smell of poop.

    Your innovation makes some sense to me.
    I hope it can do as much as it is promoted to
    be able to accomplish.





    <"();:::::::::::::::;~

  5. #45
    Guest
    Don, thank you very much for answering my questions so throughly and in a way my poor 'noggin could grasp. Much appreciated! Carol

  6. #46
    Lindox, the next, and I think one of the two most important additions to the site, will be coming up very shortyly, if I can keep the fire to the feet of the man I hired to do the work. The text is ready, captions, that is, for a series of images and eventually short flicks that will help to explain the two ways energy is captured by cells from the stream. Called photo-trophism and chemo-trophism, the tutorial will explain how digestion is the latter, and the targeted delivery of this energy by the nervous system to the cells of the body is then called nervous system trophism. To simulate nervous system trophism we have a cathode that corrodes or is 'digested,' in a manner of speaking, and with the anode we introduce a pulsed electrical field to the nerve endings transcutaneously, mimicking the way the nervous system delivers energy in waves of polarization and de-polarization. This analogy of direct current stimulation as a sort of pseudo-stomach, I hope, will justify for you the undertaking of learning where the nerve endings lie, as shown in the anatomy pictures already on the page. I will not put up instructions on the use of the machines until the machines themelves are available, and at that time too I will provide links for a bulletin board such as this one. Communication has always been very important for science, and I am just dying to know if galvanic revivification will do all the things the theory predicts besides restore muscle. Visits to the hospital and dentist for checkups reveals that my blood pressure is very low, all systems are working well after 31 years in a wheelchair, that I have the jawbone and the teeth of someone healthy less than half my age. My vision is the best it has ever been, and I don't need glasses to read. What I would like to investigate next is galvanic baths, and I understand they were done in England and Germany at the end of the 19th century, though, at that time, they had little in the way of diagnostic and laboratory tests. The Bakken Museum outside of Minneapolis is devoted to the history of the study of the role of electricity and electromagnetism in life. There are books there that have key information, I'm sure, about this 19th century work, even if it was done in relative ignorance. I think galvanic baths should be investigated for their affect on the skin, viruses, and retroviruses, and blood pressure relief. I'd much rather do this than get caught up in a pissing contest with people who want only to defend the beiefs, people, and methods that might be keeping them in wheelchairs.

  7. #47
    Don, your machine sounds interesting. I only hope that it is truly safe and that those using it will indeed benefit. Presenting it as an alternative to FES rather than attempting to promote its use by attacking the entire field of neuroscience may have circumvented some of the doubt and suspicion you've encountered. Can you tell us more about yourself, is your injury complete, how long did you use the machine before you started experiencing return?

    ...first of all, that the muscle's condition must be the result of disuse atrophy, and not denervation. Denervation would result from peripheral nerve damage like the severing of a nerve to a muscle, leaving the muscle without any nerve supply at all, whereas with atrophy the nerve fibers are there but just aren't firing. The time from injury is very important.
    Are you saying that the best candidates are those with some remaining white matter, i.e., those who have spasms or experience spasticity? Could those who are unresponsive to traditional FES benefit from using your machine?

    Thanks.

  8. #48
    Seneca, Dr. Young's colleague, Dr. Kern, who is said to have had, in the summary of the conversation between the two you sent to me, incredible visions of the effects of electrical stimulation on the recovery of muscle long paralyzed, works with direct current. In one of the research references that Dr. Young posted, one with Dr. Kern has team leader, it is reported that the current strength used was 250 milliamperes. Dr. Kern and Dr. Young both expressed concern about the destruction to muscle tissue at these tremendous current strengths. In the research report of Dr. Kern's the claim is made that a bi-symmetric or biphasic pulse was used. This is an attempt to limit the harsh effects of the direct current on tissue. What is involved here is a switching of polarity back and forth with each pulse. This effectively limits tissue damage, and removes electrochemistry as a consideration for the restoration of muscle through the triggering of protein synthesis, thereby rendering direct current stimulation as useless as FES or any electrotherapy that employs faradic current or AC, no matter how powerful muscle contractions are or how long they go on. It is extremely important, if one wants to restore a muscle, to use the same sort of electrical impulse that the body uses, applied at the same point, the neuromuscular junction. What the body uses is electrochemistry. It is a requirement of the FDA that all approved, powered, muscle stimulators pass no more than half a milliampere. This is to avoid excessive, or any, charge transmission, once again ruling out electrochemistry. The PEMS of Reeve and Young is said to achieve 'charge neutrality', and this renders their machine useless, for it too rules out electrochemistry. Simply put, FES, despite the anecdotal claims of those who use it, has no effect whatsoever in stopping deterioration from disuse, or in restoring muscle mass and strength, for it has no way of acting upon the type II muscle fiber. It is the type II fiber which makes up what we see grossly as muscle mass, and which is the structure behind strength of voluntary muscle use. It is the very thing, tissue damage, that makes direct current objectionable that also makes it effective. What is important then in using it is how it is used. Damage can easily be avoided if one is trained. The machine I propose, and use on myself, and which Clayton Dixon and others use, can still cause some damage if used without good technique. But the machine is so mild that the damage will be to skin only and the skin will recover just as it does from sunburn or chapping from exposure to the cold. As for telling you about myself, enough is said in the essay on the website dealing with the origins if the theory of galvanic revivification.

    "Are you saying that the best candidates are those with some remaining white matter, i.e., those who have spasms or experience spasticity? Could those who are unresponsive to traditional FES benefit from using your machine?"

    Please pay attention here. I have already said that spasticity is not the result of nervous activity. Instead it is the result of smooth muscle being acted upon by blood chemistry and local conditions. An example of the latter would be hot water on Andy's toe causing the leg to jump. There is no arcing in the spinal cord or reflex arc here. The striated, voluntary muscle is too far gone for nerve to make it contract. What is contracting is smooth muscle, the same sort of muscle that contracts when you shiver, or have cramps, or are tickled mercilessly. Both smooth and striated muscle are present on every muscle. The smooth muscle is associated mostly with blood and blood chemistry, and acts to constrict vessels, arteries and capillaries when it is cold out. All smooth muscle has electrical synapses, that is, fibers which grow from cells that are immediately post-synaptic, i.e., immediately downstream from the nerve ending. These fibers grow out to the smooth muscle cells. These fibers are protein wrapped up in a membrane that is the same or similar to myelin. But from the same cluster of synapses that can be found in the neuromuscular junction or ganglion, grows another set of electrical synapses, only this structure of synapses innervates the muscle cells of striated muscle, the muscle used in voluntary contraction. These fibers too are proteins wrapped in a myelin-like fiber. I think here we might see what muscle physiologists call fast and slow twitch fibers, but I'm not sure about this. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. The fast twitch fibers go to the striated muscle, the slow twitch to the smooth muscle.
    Now we are presented with a spinal cord injured person. His muscles at first grow bigger and less dense with time, and then start to appear to wither and sag. If the nerve supply to the muscle is severed, both fast and slow twitch fibers are lost, and the muscle is flaccid. But if the nerve supply remains, with just the firing of the neurons that activate the fast twitch fibers being interrupted, then the fast twitch fibers lose cross-sectional area and the possibility of voluntary muscle contraction is soon lost as this atrophy advances. About the time that this happens spasticity appears. It is the reaction of the smooth muscle, not the striated muscle. What the spasticity announces is: the striated muscle type II fiber has lost its protein interior, but the blood supply is still there. Even spastic muscle will become flaccid over the years as the smooth muscle type II fiber slowly withers, but the neurons which activate cannot be traced to the spinal cord. They are in the brain and send axons down along the spine, traveling directly from the brain down the sympathetic chain on either side of the spine. As they travel down the spine they are joined at the dorsal ganglion by fibers coming from the cord to form the spinal nerve. These two types of nerve fibers form the clusters of synapses found in each neuromuscular junction and ganglion.
    To answer your question then, if a person has spasticity, it is a good sign, for it means that the autonomic [not spinal] nerve supply and blood supply to the muscle is still intact. It tells us nothing about striated muscle condition except that it is too withered to use. What my machine does is trigger the growth not just of the striated muscle type II fiber proteins back through its empty sheath, but also triggers the growth of the smooth muscle type II fiber, and all things which grow from the synapse, whether muscle fibers or what becomes the contents of organs like the liver, the kidney, the lungs, the heart, the eye, the tongue, the genito-urinary organs, the stomach, the intestines, all arteries and capillaries, and the list goes on. A person who once had spasticity but lost it over the years, will see it return as he/she is restored, but this return will come long before the muscle becomes again usable.

  9. #49
    D.Q.:

    If you go over to the Project Walk website, they have video clips which show what they do and the results of their P.T.methods. Project Walk was also interviewed by a news team from New Zealand and I find this type of media helpful. I am not endorsing Project Walk but I would like to see pictures along with some video clips (AVI,MPEG, etc) of your technology.

    PN

  10. #50
    Paul, as far as video clips are concerned, I am working on that for the website now. But they are instructional videos aimed not at explaining what this all about, but how to do it. As for what this is all about, that comes in a more textual form in discussions of the history of science and evolution of thought regarding electricity and the nervous system. This is really boring material for the most part. I'm sure that people want to see things put in terms they are familiar with. In this regard the next thing to be hoisted to the web page will be the electrochemical tutorial. It will provide full justification for the use of direct current stimulation, and will eventually include MPEGs and video clips to replace the pictures. MPEGs will be used extensively in the explanation of the equipment, how to set it up and use it, and how to exercise each of the 1,152 motor endplate regions and ganglia in the body. From earlier postings you know that direct current can damage tissue if not used judiciously and with training. The page will provide the training and links to get the machines. I really don't care for media attention yet, and if it comes I have nothing to show except a small group of people who are dedicated to this and can show how it has helped them. I am not interested in amassing anecdotal evidence so that I can garner some sort of media attention and, with it, the attention of officialdom like that behind the Keck Center for Collaborative Neuroscience. I am interested instead in disseminating this information in such a way that it is taken up by both the handicapped and those just interested in fitness and health, and it is spread that way. You must understand that the equipment is not even approvable by the FDA, so I can get in trouble for making it available even at cost. Nevertheless, I will take that chance since I am driven by a deep-seated desire to topple the house of neuroscience rather than be assimilated by it, after what it has done for me and the harm it continues to inflict upon stroke victims and nervous system injured in its backwardness and insularity.

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