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Thread: The joke of electrotherapy

  1. #31
    DQ,
    As you know, one person doesn't make a study. How do you know it's your machine that got this person out of the wheelchair as you claimed? Lots of people get out of the wheelchair.
    I would have to know all of the details of their injury....Asia level? Incomplete/complete?
    Motor/Sensory level(of injury)?
    Any funcion or sensory below injury level at all and if so what exactly?
    How long before they began to regain any function at all? Could they even wiggle a toe?(this one is important, as we've found it's the key to the people that end up walking...they can usually wiggle a toe within the first 6 months or so after injury)
    Chronic SCI/How long injured?
    Details of the use and progress with your machine?
    Most importantly, what proof do you have that it was your machine that worked? Is it any more or less than the proof we have with FES which is the results that we can see?

  2. #32
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    Don Quixote, I think anyone who lives with a spinal cord injury or loves someone with SCI is always looking for help in the form of a better quality of life, partial, or total cure and that we are all open to these things. I think where you started off on the wrong foot is the negative, attacking manner in which you approached the subject of FES and our very respected and loved Wise Young.This approach makes one skeptical to what you are saying. If, indeed, you have a better product than we are all willing to listen with open minds if approached in a professional, non-defensive manner.

    I have been in a chair for 25 years and involved with the original FES research.I have been using FES for 20 + years. I am as healthy or healthier than most women my age (43). I have had many people ask me why I am in the chair because nothing looks wrong with me. I was at an airport once and an employee came over to ask me if I would get out of the airport chair because they needed it for someone who couldn't walk.

    If you have a product that can do all that and more than I anxiously await it's debut. Pleas keep us informed. Also, please educate us in a much less defensive way so that we may all work together to attain a common goal- curing SCI.

    BTY, I have just started something odd after riding my ERGYS FES bike, maybe you could explain why it is occurring. After riding my usual 2- 30 minute sessions, I shut off the bike and my legs continue to pedal on their own in the same manner as when they are stimulated by the computer. I can't help but think that this must be something good happening and if it is, I truly believe it is from exercising with my FES bike.

    Thanks Don for respecting us and I, too, would like to know a little bit about your background, etc. I anticipate a response, Nan

  3. #33
    Nandavis15, in order that the hypothesis I am putting forth be understood as something more than an addition to the accepted wisdom, I need to point out where that accepted wisdom is flawed. This takes an examination of history for we need to know how we got to this point, this accepted wisdom that seems to do nothing to even slightly improve our conditions. The idea that the nervous system is electrochemical, as commonsensical as it may seem, is not what the current knowledge is. That is why Dieter Walz, editor of the journal Bioelectrochemistry, upon reading the abstract to an article I wanted to submit, called this idea 'really revolutionary.' The two reviews I received, [one of which, with the response to Dr. Felix T. Hong, Md., Ph., of Wayne State University, the reviewer, is on the web page] recommended the article not be accepted for publication. I never expected it would; what I was looking for was peer review, and Dr. Hong wrote a wonderful and revealing, 15 page criticism of the paper, and asked for a point-by-point rebuttal.
    In a post yesterday I said I was not pushing a product; that I was trying to advance an idea, one which would be of far greater benefit to the spinal cord injury community when practiced than anything available, whether one's injury was complete or incomplete, whether the weakness followed from stroke, concussion, or spinal injury. I am suggesting, in fact, that if the muscles of the handicapped are restored, and if the muscles of the injured are maintained as soon as they leave the emergency room, then there will be far fewer people in wheelchairs, and many who rise up from them over the years. But this cannot be done with anything approved by the FDA whose regulations prohibit the use of electrochemistry in powered muscle stimulators.
    About your observations, I would like to know for how long your legs 'pedal on their own', whether this is due to any effort on your part, whether you can prolong the time when this is happening, and if the extensor power stroke from your leg on the pedal is accompanied by a simultaneous flexion of the opposite leg. Otherwise this could be due to a flywheel effect exerted by the gearing of your machine, and if this is the case we are next left to explaining why this was not observed before. Its previous non-observation could be attributed to its not happening, or your not actually noticing it.

    Hope2findacure, the person's name is Clayton Dixon, a machine gunner on a riverboat in Nam in an earlier life. He was a victim of a motor vehicle accident which caused a neck fracture at the C4-5 level. He spent 8 months at the VA hospital in Palo Alto, California, and was told he was a functional quadriplegic, and that arrangements could be made for him at a disabled veterans home in the desert near Barstow. He heard of me through a cocktail waitress at a bar, a friend of mine. We got in touch, I explained what was involved, he submitted, I taught him how to do it himself after he noticed his ability to open his left hand and grip things improved markedly over the course of a month, to the point where he could actually manipulate the electrode itself as he did the treatment. Three months later he was walking independently, though feebly. He moved away using one of my old machines that I made and which was of poor quality. He recently received one of the prototypes I am seeking to have manufactured. If you want more particulars, I can give you his phone number. When he returned to the VA for a follow-up exam to determine the amount of money he would be receiving as a veteran for his disability, the therapists who worked there were amazed at is recovery, and asked him what he had been doing. He told them about me, and they wanted to hear no more. They already know me in Palo Alto, and how I insist that what they are doing can be marvelously supplemented with the use of direct current. I was told that nobody uses direct current since people don't like the strangeness of its feel.
    I am awaiting quotes for the production of the machine from several companies. What I hope to do is enlist people in a sort of internet-fired, grass roots bit of experimentation, people who have the perseverance and the fire to go beyond the medical community which has failed them and others for over a century. What will be on the web site, in addition to what's on there now, will be, as I noted earlier, a tutorial on electrochemistry and its role in life. This tutorial will explain the field of bioenergetics, and offer the theoretical justification for the use of the device. In addition will be links to where the device can be obtained at production cost plus shipping and handling. Finally, there will be information and instruction on why your machine does what it does, circuit diagrams so you can have the machine made yourself, and downloadable videos showing how to do the exercise and what to watch for, where to stimulate, what to look for as the muscle grows stronger. It is important to know your equipment and how to use it. You should first do this on yourself before doing it on others who cannot do it to themselves because of no control of the hands. The longer from the day of injury, the longer it takes the muscle to be restored, and so this takes a commitment, in some cases, that could go on for a decade or more. The wonderful thing is that muscles that can be used grow stronger so that, in effect, this is an exercise program that even the healthy can use, and will become part of a weekly routine of self-maintenance for anyone interested in fitness and health. There is much more to it, but, until you understand bioenergetics, the claims made about the affects on chronic and degenerative disorders, especially those that appear with aging, seem a bit rosy and overstated.
    You write, "Most importantly, what proof do you have that it was your machine that worked? Is it any more or less than the proof we have with FES which is the results that we can see?" Proof is a mathematical notion. What you mean is evidence. But here you prejudice your case by saying that what you see are results, thereby assuming that the evidence of change was triggered by the machine's intervention rather than the results coming from the effort it takes to use the machine. For example, in the case of Nan, above, she told of using her machine twice a day for twenty years. She's obviously a very active person with the muscles she can use, but has the machine ever restored the use of any muscle, or just changed its appearance? Remember, strong muscles are dense muscles. When a person's paralyzed muscles appear to bulk up but still are useless, the first thing to check is their weight.

    Dr. Wise, where is your data? The studies you sent were almost useless when not irrelevant. You claim FES works. Show me the data. One study you sent actually said that FES DOES NOT INCREASE THE CROSS SECTIONAL AREA OF THE TYPE II FIBER, WHETHER A OR B. And this is what I have been saying all along. All my arguments are based upon the data that is relevant, and that is in the texts. This issue goes deeper then you can imagine, and, in this regard I urge you to consider my letters to Dieter Walz and Felix T. Hong, especially with regard to the issue of the accepted model of voltaic cells and how this perpetuates the flawed practice of putting the ground, when cell membrane voltages are measured, external to the cell rather than inside of it.

  4. #34
    I have benefited from using an EMS machine since 1988. It is the only technology that works for me at this point in time. It certainly does stop muscle atrophy for myself but it does not help with real return of function. It improves circulation and helps to decrease spasms along with tone.

    Q, I believe you cannot stop science and technology. I am trying to get a mental image of what this technology you are involved in looks like. Can you provide us with a picture, along with and illustration?

    PN

  5. #35
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    DQ, thanks for the information. I will eagerly await more news at the galvanism website. In reply to your comments on my observations I will let you know that this pedaling on my own has happened 3 times in the last 2 weeks. The range of time pedaling on my own was 1/2 hour to 1 hour with each time stopping it because it was getting late. I totally disconnected myself from any power source to eliminate the possibility of current spillover. My legs contracted in the same manner as the they do when the computer stimulates them. It definitely was simultaneous flexion of the opposite leg. I even stopped several times during the last two runs to see if it would start up again and it did each time once I gave it a little push start. This was definitely not momentum as my FES unit is pretty hard to push, electrical current spillover or spasms. It was not something that had happened before or anything inadvertantly unnoticed. My 12 year old daughter has witnessed each time in amazement asking me if I am doing it on my own which I was not.

  6. #36
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    DQ, FYI, I don't ride 2x's a day. I ride anywhere from 3-4 hours a week at 1 hour a hook-up. I do work and have 3 kids and use my standing frame or I probably would work out more often!

  7. #37
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    DQ, I guess I should read everything thoroughly before having to post 3 times but just wanted to mention that my legs are of very normal size and I am 5'8" and weigh 125 pounds (I was weighed on Dec. 2, 2003) and my pants still fit so I have to say that I disagree that FES muscle bulk is weight gain. Also, I am using my FES bike much more religiously in the last year than in the last 20 years. I didn't use it during 3 nine month pregnancies and as much when the kids were young. Now that they are older I have a little more time to myself. I think what is going on is because of the intense use of FES lately.

  8. #38
    while DQ's methods to promote his views may not be the best way to achieve the support of others, i would like to back up what he is saying. he mentioned Clayton Dixon. i did the majority of my rehab at VA PaloAlto along with Clay from July-December '02. as a fairly incomplete quad, Clay couldn't walk w/o a walker and a spotter, and could only manage 20-40 yards at a time. i'm still in contact w/ Clay, and he is ecstatic about the improvement he's had since using DQ's device. i cannot wait to try this device because whenever i talk to Clay (who i consider a close friend) he tells me all about his improvements.
    i know this thread has a lot of readers upset w/ DQ, but there are a few things i can attest to that may or may not help. 1st, he does have a SCI that he sustained many years ago (i don't feel it is my place to specify more than that because i have not asked his permission to do so). second, his intentions are not for profit. these devices are made from a list of materials that can be purchased from radio shack, but assembly and packaging them in an efficient manner is difficult. Finally, DQ is an intelligent man and i too find it difficult to comprehend how electrochemistry works when he explains it. but the basic principle of how to apply the treatment and electricity causing muscles to contract is similar to the other electrotherapy techniques used by everyone. he's explaining how his therapy works on the levels of physics, chemistry, electricity, biology, etc, etc. i guarantee that if someone tried to explain FES or the other therapies on those levels i'd be equally confused.
    HOWEVER, like a few others posted, it's worth a shot to try it. that's the reason people are trying FES, TENS, etc. Just because you don't like his manner of promoting this therapy, don't discount the therapy! some people have found that FES works for them, some find it doesn't. same thing goes for TENS therapy. how can you find out whether DQ's therapy works if you don't try it? no matter what therapy comes out, there will always be someone who says it doesn't work. as long as you're careful and it doesn't hurt you, why not give it a shot?

  9. #39
    Don Q.
    I read the site..on galvanic revivication.
    Interesting.
    I couldn't find the apparatus used. Could
    you direct on this?

    Has any apparatus of this type been presented to the FDA?

    The theory used appears to have been around for ages. Why haven't the believers and promoters of this theory done any of the required data studies to promote this innovation?

    Might be neurosciences promote as you say ineffective electrical stimulators.. because there is nothing else to promote.

    Have you tried presenting this to a few of
    the professionals?

    It's very difficult to listen when someone is
    yelling negativity at you.
    Heaven knows the endless politics of medicine
    is sickening..but it's the way of the world.

    <"();:::::::::::::::;~

  10. #40
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    Don

    Can your device be used if a person has hardware, such as a pin in the femur? We were told that FES could not be used if one had hardware, but I learned on this site that is old information, that FES is safe to use on a person with hardware. I'm not sure if I understand quite clearly how this device works, and I'm sure that is my lack of understanding and knowledge of scientific things, not your explaination. But is my limited 'noggin power understanding that this is similar to FES, but more powerful? Which makes me think, if I'm correct, or close, that maybe the power of your device might heat the hardware and do tissue damage? if you've got time to answer, I appreciate it. Carol

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