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Thread: "Shock & Awe"

  1. #31
    Senior Member Rick1's Avatar
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    Alan - Are you serious? - If the Iraqi people had legitimate opportunity to choose their own government in the first place, we wouldn't be at war right now.

  2. #32
    Senior Member kate's Avatar
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    Sorry, sorry, sorry . . .

    Points taken, including the one about obfuscation. I often do that massively sarcastic thing when I see what looks like emotionalism and oversimplification. It's a defense of my own, and you should call me on it anytime it crops up.

    Having said that--and feeling a little more able to engage the actual question--I think the USA is making the world more dangerous, not less. The thing is that knowledge, scientific knowledge like how to make nuclear weapons and biological weapons and chemical weapons--knowledge can't be bombed out of existence. It's out there, forever. If the longterm goal is freedom and justice for all (and I do think that at least some of our current leaders honestly hold that goal), then exercising force makes no sense. Violence begets violence. That's what seems so blazingly clear to me.

    For now at least, we have the most weapons and the most money, which means that somebody somewhere is going to be either afraid of us or jealous of us or both--especially now that we've so emphatically demonstrated that we don't feel constrained by anything when it comes to getting our way. It's oversimplifying to call this a pacifist position, don't you think? It's absurd, isn't it, to think that we can just demand that people everywhere have faith in our good intentions for them when they know we're holding almost all of the cards in the game?


    Plus, I admit, I am still thinking about that 5-yr-old Iraqi girl who has shrapnel embedded in her spine as a result of that first night's attempt to decapitate the regime. I know, I know, get over it. It's a war. Shit happens.
    Freedom and justice for all, except her.

  3. #33
    Senior Member mk99's Avatar
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    Let's look at Turkey for a moment. The only "model" Muslim democracy and a member of the UN. 96% of the people oppose the US led war and refused the US to allow troops to use the territory. They didn't even take a $26 billion bribe.

    What if a new democratic Iraq legally and democratically elects another Taliban? We are assuming that a democracy will elect a good secular government that likes the US. What happens if this is not true?

    I don't think the issue is whether Iraq will become democratic or not. The issue is whether the new Government of Iraq will be friendly towards the US or not. It's called a Puppet Regime.

    To be fair, the new regime will be a SUBSTANTIAL improvement over Saddam, the Iraqi people will be better off and the US will have a new stable source of oil. Hopefully things work out this way without too much death & destabilization of the region.

  4. #34
    A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

    I guess some people have to travel half way across the planet just to open their eyes.

    Click here for the LINK

  5. #35
    mkowalski, there is so much that we don't know about the Turkey-U.S. negotiations for access to their bases and overflight rights that I think that we should not be using it as an example of what future democracies will do in the Middle East.

    Despite heavy incentives, i.e. $26 billion and opportunity to work with U.S. troops in Northern Iraq, the Turkey parliament could not approve the request by its leaders to allow U.S. troops to use its bases and even postponed overflight rights until the last moment. Turkey is in deep economic trouble right now and depends on U.S. support for international monetary funds.

    So, the real question is why Turkey is so reluctant to cooperate with the United States. One possibility is that the U.S. may have refused to provide guarantees that there will not be an independent Kurdistan nation carved out of Northern Iraq after the war. The 96% opposition to the U.S. attack on Iraq is probably a mixture of anger at the U.S. attack, mistrust of the U.S., and fear that the outcome will be the establishment of an independent Kurdish nation that would threaten Turkey's eastern borders.

    The recent reports that Turkish troops have crossed the border into Northern Iraq may be an attempt to test the resolve of the United States on this issue. There appears to be efforts on the part of the United States to minimize this issue but I suspect that the guarantees that Turkey is seeking are not being voiced. The United States military has been able to organize nearly 50,000 Kurdish fighters to help them stabilize Northern Iraq against a retreat of the Iraqi forces northward. They don't want Turkish troops in the region to jeopardize this bulwark in the endgame.

    In my opinion, the policy makers in the Bush administration are practical people. While they may like a "puppet" regime that they control without seeming to do so, I think that they think that almost any regime would be better than Saddam Hussein. As you point out, they probably cannot imagine anything that is worse. Therefore, any new regime would be a "substantial improvement over Saddam".

    Wise.

  6. #36
    Senior Member DA's Avatar
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    The thing is that knowledge, scientific knowledge like how to make nuclear weapons and biological weapons and chemical weapons--knowledge can't be bombed out of existence.


    ok kate, tell us a better way?
    then tell us how to apply your solution to a crazy dictator.

  7. #37
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
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    The Iraqis could choose an Islamic Republic, a ala Iran. What do we do then?

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