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Thread: Motorcycle accidents and traumatic brain injury

  1. #11
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    Helmets

    I rode motor scooters, motor bikes and motorcycles for 50 years without any crashes or serious injuries, except for my last ride that resulted in SCI ten years ago.

    I am a firm believer in the use of helmets and seat belts in passenger vehicles. In my
    SCI-producing wreck I was catapulted so violently that I fractured my breast bone, bruised both lungs and tore my descending aorta. The manner in which I hit the ground damaged my helmet. Without it I would have received a serious head injury or even death.

    Always,
    Fannie Wype
    You C.A.N.
    Conquer Adversity Now

  2. #12
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    My parents were told that had I been wearing my seatbelt, I would have been killed instantly. I lost 4 pints of blood in the five hours I was trapped in the car.

    I believe that if it is your time to die...it is your time to die.

    South Carolina politicians have been known to say that the lack of a helmet law saves them money. There are more deaths from motorcyclists without helmets but less long term hospital care for the injured. It was a hot issue several years ago.

    My uncle (from SC) is one of those who believes he will live forever and chooses not to wear a helmet. He was hit by a truck last year and broke his neck with no cord damage but still wears no helmet. That was a hard phone call for me to get.
    T12-L2; Burst fracture L1: Incomplete walking with AFO's and cane since 1989

    My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Here are some interesting statistics concerning motorcycles and head injury nationally and in West Virginia. Interestingly, West Virginia has the highest fatality rate from automobile accidents of any state in the Union (5.6 per 100,000 compared to nationally 0.74 per 100,000). Better wear your helmets and seatbelts when driving in West Virginia.

    http://www.ced.wvu.edu/Programs/Comm...isci/index.htm
    i have a friend who is a mathematician/statistician via Harvard and he would tear this list to pieces. one on the things i learned from him, for a statistic you need a set of figures and most of these types of helmet ones are missing a key figure/number, therefore it is invalid, similar to a peer review of clinical trial missing a key item.
    one of the more famous pro helmet statistics, quoted in every helmet loving bicycle article including consumer reports, was proved to be junk science, due to missing parameters, and the quoted paper also failed peer review,yet everybody kept quoting itfor many years after since it fit their needs. Kind of like weapons of mass destruction and invading Iraq
    If i remember correctly motorcycle helmets are only rated and tested for for a 30 mph fall, bicycle helmets for 15mph, and many fail that test, even the priciest trek bicycle helmets had to be recalled. They only test an extremely low percentage and only test one size, and one model even though they may sell 20 models,19 will never get tested.
    Bicycle helmets do not and were never designed to prevent/reduce concussions, and that is from a non motor vehicle involved fall/crash, Forget about having another vehicle involved! That info is from the helmet makers, i believe that goes for for motorcycle helmets too.
    Football helmets which are much thicker and absorbing than bike helmets , do not prevent concussions, were not designed too. There is a new one by riddel out that is designed to prevent concussions, but it is not gaining acceptance since it is at least twice as thick.
    Motorcycle Helmets may help your head from deep road rash , torn off face, but they also tend to break your neck,especially if you hit teeth /chin first like that #1 football player did on a motorcycle, i think in Pennsylvania. Football players changed over to the under helmet locked in padding to reduce broken necks, before this was done way too many high school kids got cervical injuries, many post here, now a days its a rarity and usually due to illegal technique or improper equipment set up, the same thing that causes many mountaineering injuries/fatalities. Doctors in the ER have no training in the field of statistical analysis but are always making quotes that are headline grabbing but meaningless and inaccurate.,since they do not have the full equation. Similar to a small town non sci trained doc telling the injured person and family that they will never ? again in the first 12 hours.
    cauda equina

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by metronycguy View Post
    i have a friend who is a mathematician/statistician via Harvard and he would tear this list to pieces. one on the things i learned from him, for a statistic you need a set of figures and most of these types of helmet ones are missing a key figure/number, therefore it is invalid, similar to a peer review of clinical trial missing a key item.
    one of the more famous pro helmet statistics, quoted in every helmet loving bicycle article including consumer reports, was proved to be junk science, due to missing parameters, and the quoted paper also failed peer review,yet everybody kept quoting itfor many years after since it fit their needs. Kind of like weapons of mass destruction and invading Iraq
    If i remember correctly motorcycle helmets are only rated and tested for for a 30 mph fall, bicycle helmets for 15mph, and many fail that test, even the priciest trek bicycle helmets had to be recalled. They only test an extremely low percentage and only test one size, and one model even though they may sell 20 models,19 will never get tested.
    Bicycle helmets do not and were never designed to prevent/reduce concussions, and that is from a non motor vehicle involved fall/crash, Forget about having another vehicle involved! That info is from the helmet makers, i believe that goes for for motorcycle helmets too.
    Football helmets which are much thicker and absorbing than bike helmets , do not prevent concussions, were not designed too. There is a new one by riddel out that is designed to prevent concussions, but it is not gaining acceptance since it is at least twice as thick.
    Motorcycle Helmets may help your head from deep road rash , torn off face, but they also tend to break your neck,especially if you hit teeth /chin first like that #1 football player did on a motorcycle, i think in Pennsylvania. Football players changed over to the under helmet locked in padding to reduce broken necks, before this was done way too many high school kids got cervical injuries, many post here, now a days its a rarity and usually due to illegal technique or improper equipment set up, the same thing that causes many mountaineering injuries/fatalities. Doctors in the ER have no training in the field of statistical analysis but are always making quotes that are headline grabbing but meaningless and inaccurate.,since they do not have the full equation. Similar to a small town non sci trained doc telling the injured person and family that they will never ? again in the first 12 hours.
    metronyguy,

    Statistics of course can be abused. I agree that many of the conclusions in the list are likely to be poorly supported by data. For example, I shudder to think of the assumptions involved in calculating that helmets saved 490 lives in 1996. They may have assumed that every person involved in a motorcycle crash, who wore a helmet, and did not have a severe head injury was saved by the helmet. That would be erroneous of course.

    On the other hand, they might have obtained the estimate of 490 lives by comparing fatality rates of helmet-wearing and non-helmet wearing motorcyclists involved in accidents. In truth, as long as one does not randomize helmet wearing, it is difficult to rule out certain variable. For example, the fact that one doesn't wear a helmet may indicate greater tolerance for risk, hence possibly higher speeds and more reckless driving by non-helmeted motorcyclists.

    Some numbers give pause for thought. For example, the statement "Fatalities from brain injuries are twice as high in states with weak or no motorcycle helmet laws in comparison to states enforcing helmet laws" Sure, there are many possible explanation for these results but the most parsimonious explanation is that helmets save lives.

    Wise.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Tim C.'s Avatar
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    So true, so bizarrely true,. What my sci left me as

    Quote Originally Posted by tooley View Post
    Life's funny, around here the guy with the "Helmet Laws Suck" decal on his brain-bucket is the guy that walks away from a crumpled up mass of death machine.

    It's fate. The people that can handle this life are just destined to be gimps, whether it be motorcycle or apple tree. Some people break their necks falling out of bed. Other people walk away from sky-diving accidents.
    My sci left me as the exact antithesis of everything that identified me as me. I mean EVERY characteristic of me. Too bizarre not to be some form of fate. I would never have believed it could be possible if it did not happen to me. It's as if some puppet master is playing this out like some freak form of entertainment for himself. It's been a slow dismantling of my physical self, my lifestyle, my career, my friends, my luck, and lastly......at least I have my family, right? Nah, at the exact moment when my family (marriage + children) was at its absolute stongest peak, positive best ever, out of no where comes this black cloud of pure evil that parks itself overhead my house and slowly, painfully, hellishly takes it all apart while can only sit by helplessly watching it. Despite my most sincere efforts, everything I try to either thwart it, or repair it goes awry, as if this satanic puppet master predicted my most exhausting attempts and transforms them into a destructive force rather than corrective for his sick, twisted mind to enjoy.

    No shit, it's really how I feel.
    Life couldn't suck more for me.
    See ya'll on the other side.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by metronycguy View Post
    If i remember correctly motorcycle helmets are only rated and tested for for a 30 mph fall, bicycle helmets for 15mph, and many fail that test, even the priciest trek bicycle helmets had to be recalled.
    I got the following info from Snell's website. Snell tests helmets in a number of ways. For the impact test: "This test involves a series of controlled impacts where a helmet is positioned on a metal head form and then dropped in a guided fall onto various steel test anvils (Flat, Hemisphere, Kurbstone, Roll bar, Edge or a Horseshoe type) which simulate different impact surfaces. The head forms are instrumented with an accelerometer to measure peak G force or acceleration which is measured in "G"ravitational units. The impact energy (drop height and mass), or how hard the helmets are impacted is unique to each standard. However, in any valid test, if the peak acceleration imparted to the head form exceeds certain threshold value (around 300 G's, depending on standard and test type), the helmet is rejected."


    They only test an extremely low percentage and only test one size, and one model even though they may sell 20 models,19 will never get tested.
    Why not test all sizes? From "Final Report of Workshop on Criteria for Head Injury and Helmet Standards" at http://www.smf.org/docs/articles/hic/hic_workshop.pdf
    As for testing all sizes "Mr. Halstead added that NOCSAE did a body form data study, but this also was not published. This study found the head mass varied from 4.01 kg to 5.83 kg. This corresponds to the 4.1 to 6.1 kg range that EC uses in its testing standard. Snell uses a median 5.0 kg mass for its helmet testing, regardless of size. This enables more repeatability, and avoids having to alter the joules or the velocity according to head form mass. But does this testing approach diminish the protection for people with smaller or larger heads?

    Mr. Becker pointed out that smaller head size doesn’t always equate with smaller weight. Indeed, a study done at Tulane suggests cubic size measurements of heads do not correlate with their weights, he said. Mr. Halstead added that there is not much variation in head mass in adults and the real variation comes from comparing children to adults. Since the focus of the conference was adult helmets, varying helmet mass was not such a critical issue. But Dr. Thomas noted that it would help for crash test helmet testing if everyone used the same helmet forms. The US Government uses the DOT head forms for their testing, whereas most other organizations use ISO head forms."

    As for the number of models tested, again from the Snell website:
    "For qualification testing, helmets shall be in the same condition as those offered for sale. No helmet or component which has been subjected to any tests described in this Standard shall be offered for sale after testing. At least five (5) and as many as seven (7) complete helmets must be submitted by the manufacturer for a certification test program for each distinct structural configuration of the models offered for sale. All but one of these samples will be destroyed in testing; the untested sample shall be retained for comparison and reference. If different fit pad configurations are planned in order to accommodate this head gear for different size ranges, five of the samples submitted must be configured for the largest size range. If seven samples are considered necessary, the remaining two samples must be configured for the smallest intended size. Additional samples representing different fit pad configurations may also be provided at the discretion of the submitter.

    In addition to the certification testing, the Foundation will routinely obtain and test samples of previously certified models. These samples will be selected from among those stocks intended for retail sale to consumers. In this manner, the Foundation will attempt to ensure that the helmets made available to the public continue to meet the performance requirements of this Standard.

    For those cases in which helmets are provided directly to users and do not pass through a normal sales distribution system, the Foundation will set up alternative procedures to monitor certified products. Specifically, if helmets are provided directly to teams or individuals for use in events, the Foundation must have access to the helmets for spot checking and non-destructive evaluation."

    Bicycle helmets do not and were never designed to prevent/reduce concussions, and that is from a non motor vehicle involved fall/crash, Forget about having another vehicle involved! That info is from the helmet makers, i believe that goes for for motorcycle helmets too.

    Football helmets which are much thicker and absorbing than bike helmets , do not prevent concussions, were not designed too. There is a new one by riddel out that is designed to prevent concussions, but it is not gaining acceptance since it is at least twice as thick.

    Motorcycle Helmets may help your head from deep road rash , torn off face, but they also tend to break your neck,especially if you hit teeth /chin first like that #1 football player did on a motorcycle,
    "It is important to realize that a lot of product type testing like helmet testing does not seek to precisely reproduce real life situations, rather it attempts to define a set of requirements that is analogous to the types of situations that might be encountered while engaged in a prescribed activity. Helmet tests are designed to be repeatable, measurable and include a fixed range of situations a helmet might reasonably encounter. At this point the concerns of helmet testing does not include responses of the neck or body as they react with the head during a crash. It is strictly a measurement of how a helmet reacts during an event to protect the wearer's brain. At Snell we believe that as technology continues to evolve, so should helmet design and manufacturing techniques."


    The Snell Memorial Foundation, Inc. is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to research, education, testing and development of helmet safety standards. Since its founding in 1957, Snell has been a leader in helmet safety in the United States and around the world.


    Here's the link to their homepage for those who are interested http://www.smf.org/home


  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Oy, you had a GCS (Glasgow Coma Scale) classification of 4? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale

    Wise.
    I just saw this Wise, They said mine was a #4 and by the looks of that scale could have been ALOT worse!!!
    Thanks!

  8. #18
    [. At this point the concerns of helmet testing does not include responses of the neck or body as they react with the head during a crash. It is strictly a measurement of how a helmet reacts during an event to protect the wearer's brain. At Snell we believe that as technology continues to evolve, so should helmet design and manufacturing techniques."
    [I]

    concussion is an aspect of brain damage, no if
    's or buts.

    if the design of the helmet changes a low-level i minor injury to a broken neck inducing a SCI , that is not a good choice, it wold be better to use a soft leather helmet or spend the money investigating materials that change from soft to rock hard ,which some companies are.
    i believe snell were designed for race cars, not motorcycles.
    the anvil test , is the same as they use on bicycle helmets. on bicycle helmets they do not alter the impact area it is the same every time. The shape of theobjrct it is dropped on is changed .
    I do not think snell test their helmets on the side , the lateral areas, which is where for motorcycle and bicycle , that is where the first point of impact is. They only test in one certain spot, and when helmet manufacture know that the spot where it is being dropped on is X , will always be X , will never be 4 inches from X , or any place but X. I would think that if they are mass-produced, the whole process would be designed to pass the X anvil drop test.
    Also if the helmets were designed for race car use, there are so many other safety factors built into the car, or removed from the car , so they do not injure the driver, a race car is a controlled enviroment , compared to a motorcycle. The way a drive is strapped into a race car , the strength ofthe roll cage i am sure the drivers body stays in place until released, and his head and helmet are relative stable compared to a motorcycle rider.
    i don't think snell has anything on other motorcycle helmet manufacturers, and in fact may be inferior since it sounds like they are using 1960's technology , and hiding behind 1960's technology, but spinning it like it better, while negating the fact that a poor design of a helmet or very likely the strapping system can cause a spinal cord injury , where a helmet less rider may get a broken jaw or teeth knocked out. i am sure many here would pick missing teeth if their injury fell into that category.
    Forget about bicycle helmets, they are just money makers for the styrofoam people. The producers know how ist will fal and the height , i am sure both motrcycle and bicycle designers/engineers can weigh the helmet so if falls exactly on X
    As long as the feds in charge of toys are the ones in charge of making the rules for life saving equipment for adults riding bikes, and still keeping the 1960's anvil test, i spite of the informed peoples knowlege of what a crock it is, you have toy helmets.

    i dont know how many times i have heard people state that their bicyclr helmet or motorcycle hemmet prventd a concussion lor the opposite, where even the helmet manufactures now admit they do not prevent concussions nor are they designed to do so. I am*sure*that*concussion*admission*is*the*result*of *many*lawsuits.*I**lso*notice*that*a*lot*of*the*bi cycle*lawsuit*settlements*have*a*strict*and**total *"no*Comment"*clause*built*into*the*settlements .*
    cauda equina

  9. #19
    Moderator jody's Avatar
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    I had a bike helmet on. got a pretty bad concussion.
    the helmet was Styrofoam with a thin plastic skin and it was cracked through where I hit the road.

    I still get things like milk shake and milk crate, chicken and kitchen, mixed up.
    I cant see music notation, the dots swim along the horizontal lines, and I can still see the dots when I look away from the paper. someone had stolen my helmet the day before, and a coworker went over to walmart and bought me one. I was going to get another when I got paid. I don't know about fate, but intuition and premonition well, there must be something to that. helmets were a requirement at every horse barn I worked at after 1990. I say wear em if at all indicated.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by metronycguy View Post
    [. At this point the concerns of helmet testing does not include responses of the neck or body as they react with the head during a crash. It is strictly a measurement of how a helmet reacts during an event to protect the wearer's brain. At Snell we believe that as technology continues to evolve, so should helmet design and manufacturing techniques."
    [I]

    concussion is an aspect of brain damage, no if
    's or buts.

    if the design of the helmet changes a low-level i minor injury to a broken neck inducing a SCI , that is not a good choice, it wold be better to use a soft leather helmet or spend the money investigating materials that change from soft to rock hard ,which some companies are.
    i believe snell were designed for race cars, not motorcycles.
    the anvil test , is the same as they use on bicycle helmets. on bicycle helmets they do not alter the impact area it is the same every time. The shape of theobjrct it is dropped on is changed .
    I do not think snell test their helmets on the side , the lateral areas, which is where for motorcycle and bicycle , that is where the first point of impact is. They only test in one certain spot, and when helmet manufacture know that the spot where it is being dropped on is X , will always be X , will never be 4 inches from X , or any place but X. I would think that if they are mass-produced, the whole process would be designed to pass the X anvil drop test.
    Also if the helmets were designed for race car use, there are so many other safety factors built into the car, or removed from the car , so they do not injure the driver, a race car is a controlled enviroment , compared to a motorcycle. The way a drive is strapped into a race car , the strength ofthe roll cage i am sure the drivers body stays in place until released, and his head and helmet are relative stable compared to a motorcycle rider.
    i don't think snell has anything on other motorcycle helmet manufacturers, and in fact may be inferior since it sounds like they are using 1960's technology , and hiding behind 1960's technology, but spinning it like it better, while negating the fact that a poor design of a helmet or very likely the strapping system can cause a spinal cord injury , where a helmet less rider may get a broken jaw or teeth knocked out. i am sure many here would pick missing teeth if their injury fell into that category.
    Forget about bicycle helmets, they are just money makers for the styrofoam people. The producers know how ist will fal and the height , i am sure both motrcycle and bicycle designers/engineers can weigh the helmet so if falls exactly on X
    As long as the feds in charge of toys are the ones in charge of making the rules for life saving equipment for adults riding bikes, and still keeping the 1960's anvil test, i spite of the informed peoples knowlege of what a crock it is, you have toy helmets.

    i dont know how many times i have heard people state that their bicyclr helmet or motorcycle hemmet prventd a concussion lor the opposite, where even the helmet manufactures now admit they do not prevent concussions nor are they designed to do so. I am*sure*that*concussion*admission*is*the*result*of *many*lawsuits.*I**lso*notice*that*a*lot*of*the*bi cycle*lawsuit*settlements*have*a*strict*and**total *"no*Comment"*clause*built*into*the*settlements .*
    Although I tend to agree with you abouthe bicycle helmets, the Motorcycle helmets are tested to snell and or dot standards. snell isn't a brandof helmet is is an accreditation company that tests the helmets just like DOT. What's more I checked them out prety thoroughly when I bought my first helmet and their tests are a pretty good test for how the helmet is likely to perform when invoplved in areal world bike crash. Realistically a motorcyclehelmet only needs to protect you head from the damage you would receive from falling from about 5 feet up and hitting your head. Anything else is unlikely to really matter very much. as far as saving your life. I would never wear anything except afull face helmet though either.

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