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Thread: Do aluminium frames oxidise.

  1. #11
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    I really don't think frame material matters. I think we mostly perceive what we want to perceive and take material properties from MDS and other industrial applications and errantly apply them to wheelchairs. Especially after we've invested in one type vs another. There are numerous posts here of cracked titanium. Those are anecdotes too. Do you dismiss them?

    I'm not 'fighting' anything. I will always question the lack of data, very high pricing, and marketing BS rife in our world without the independent or objective data to back any of it up.

    I've had titanium, magnesium alloy, and both 6000 and 7000 series aluminum chairs. (My Marvel was half 7000 and half carbon fiber.) One that broke was the titanium axle plate on my Quickie Ti. It also flexed so badly it could endo on front impacts, the only chair I've ever had that did that. I also had an aluminum shock mount break on a Quickie XTR.

    I rode a magnesium alloy chair for 8 years daily and it never gave me a single issue and rolled super smooth.

    None of that experience has yet convinced me one material is objectively better than another.

    I don't think any of us could tell what our chair was made of if we hadn't been told ahead of time. The differences if any are so subtle as to be mostly psychological IMO. Except the pricing. Those differences are real and not insignificant.

    I think the vast majority of the 'this vs that' material debate serves manufacturers way more than it serves us.

    At the end of the day I want fit, efficiency, and intelligent design. Material isn't on my radar with the possible exception of the new fully carbon fiber designs (i.e. Panthera X, purely from a transfer weight consideration).
    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

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  2. #12
    Never seen titanium crack. Based on personal experience and what I read, aluminum is worse. While strength is always an important factor, I also consider transfer weight, appearance, comfort, and maintenance.

    The chair frame that best meets all these needs for me is the Quickie Titanium. It's survived for 15 years so it's strong enough for me. It's super light (never seen a lighter frame other than the Python) to get in the car. It flexes (some may say too much) so it's comfy going down a road. A quick polish is all it takes to restore it's appearance. It requires no other maintenance. If there's another chair frame that can do all this better then I want it.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    Our experiences are precisely why we shouldn't be left to make decisions based on inferences taken from single/small sample anecdotes and "personal experience". Your favorite chair that lasted 15 years was a Quickie Ti. My only chair that ever broke and dumped me onto the ground, far from home, with no way to even get back to my car, was a Quickie Ti. These are both meaningless and why, as consumers of very expensive medically necessary equipment, the market should demand data and not have to rely on marketing slicks and anecdotes for important purchasing information.


    (
    There are at least 3 threads here of TiLite ZR and TR frames cracking that I found easily, but I'm not gonna link them in because, again, they don't "prove" anything in the material debate. Everything breaks. I'm only giving TiLite the guff because they're the only company left making claims of superior performance using titanium without providing any proof, or even higher weight tolerances or better warranties aka putting their money where their mouth is. I'd love the proof because I'd happily spend more to get more if I KNEW I was actually getting more.)

    There are basic "destructive" tests that have to be done as part of FDA approval (Icon shared some film of one of theirs). We should have all this data from all the manufacturers IMO, and then some (independent pushed to the limit data. Maybe I should start an organization to try to do this. Hmmmmmmmm...edit: I suspect they're all so similar it doesn't really matter, relative to the expense of doing it, but I sure think it would help us make more informed decisions.)
    Last edited by Oddity; 01-21-2020 at 10:12 AM. Reason: More words
    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

    "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

    "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

  4. #14
    Can’t disagree with your logic. But don’t hold your breath on the study. In the absence of a study what are you selecting and why?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    I choose my most recent chair because I was curious how close I could get to the fit and performance of my $7,000 Lasher Sport BT-Mg for as close to 1/10th the cost as possible. I choose the BT-Mg because the transfer weight was advertised as less than 10lbs (it was actually 11.5lbs). I bought my Marvel and Icons to support Jeff and Christian's businesses. My next chair will most likely be a Hands on Concepts Rigid Lite (titanium) because I want to support Steve's business and have a chair hand made to my exact specs, welded from one end to the other, for what I consider a very reasonable price.

    (My first 3 chairs, all Quickies, weren't so much chosen as they were settled upon based on a lack of awareness, knowledge, and involvement on my part.)

    My choices today mostly revolve around doing business with people I respect, economics, and for the chair itself my priorities are fit, efficiency (to include weight and strength to weight), and intelligent designs (including maximizing/exploiting the potentials of whatever materials it happens to be made from.)

    To make the most informed and best decision possible I wish I had real data. For the types of $ involved it seems criminal that I don't. I'll complain about this until it changes or I do something about it myself, frankly
    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

    "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

    "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

  6. #16
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    How old is your aluminium wheelchair?

    I'm trying to get a cost benefit analysis between an aluminium vs titanium wheelchair. One factor about having a titanium wheelchair that surprised me was I have had this particular wheelchair for 20 years. Was not expecting that to happen. When my parents were footing the bill for wheelchairs it was a 2 year relationship max. The first titanium wheelchair has lasted me, 6 other tittanium wheelchairs I bought with morbid curiousity, thinking maybe I could get better, but that wasnt the case. The only reason I have the need to buy another wheelchair as my physiology has aged to the point big changes need to happen. I am very curious about "very Lightweight" wheelchairs on the market as my shoulders are screwed. Dump has to be reassessed as I find I feel like I'm falling forwards out of my wheelchair, never happens but the feeling is constant.
    Everybody wants freedom.... They just don't want it for everybody else...

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Joe-MN's Avatar
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    Hands on Concepts for those wondering. I wanted to see what they had myself.

    https://www.teamhoc.com/index.php#manualwheelchairs
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-MN View Post
    Hands on Concepts for those wondering. I wanted to see what they had myself.

    https://www.teamhoc.com/index.php#manualwheelchairs
    Here is more:
    https://www.instagram.com/handsonconcepts/
    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

    "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

    "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

  9. #19
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    bugger it. I'll make my last post another thread.
    Everybody wants freedom.... They just don't want it for everybody else...

    A college professor, a man I now consider my dad, once told me...
    "The minute you let someone decide what you can and cannot do, your life is no longer yours." A truer word has never been spoken in my opinion.


    Professor Bill Johnston
    (1930- )

  10. #20
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    with bicycles you choose Ti for comfort, not weight. Aluminum race frames are lighter than Ti.

    i.e. you?re correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
    my question remains, and has always been, given what I can get off the MDS for annealed (workable) 6al4v titanium vs heat treated 7000 series aluminum, the titanium is ~45% stronger but 60% heavier by volume. How much of that strength advantage is given up to get it down to being as light (or lighter) than the aluminum? TiLite publishes the same weight limits for their chairs of either material so I suspect there is no additional strength given how thin they'd need to make the tube to save weight, but I don't know. I wish there was an independent organization doing destructive and other tests on mobility equipment to cut through the hype marketing BS and end user anecdotes and induction.
    T3 complete since Sept 2015.

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