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Thread: Setting Toe-in / Toe-out on a Shadow handcycle??

  1. #11
    I encourage you to do some coasting tests with different toe settings,
    Good advice PF but there appears to be no facility to adjust the Toe setting on this machine. The variance I am getting is due to existing fit tolerances and my current method and the ability to repeat with any real accuracy.
    The idea of using the line level should afford better repeatability. We will see...
    In respect to the aerodynamics I would need to sit side saddle to afford any improvement there, or wear a slip suit
    I am looking forward to getting out and about on it

  2. #12
    Senior Member pfcs49's Avatar
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    There's no way to rotate the axle/camber tube to adjust toe? (assuming it has some camber)

    The comment about aero drag was a little facetious but illustrates how small amounts of drag can be observed using coast-down runs. Using a full sized (race?) car is more productive perhaps.
    69yo male T12 complete since 1995
    NW NJ

  3. #13

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by pfcs49 View Post
    There's no way to rotate the axle/camber tube to adjust toe? (assuming it has some camber)

    The comment about aero drag was a little facetious but illustrates how small amounts of drag can be observed using coast-down runs. Using a full sized (race?) car is more productive perhaps.
    Yes, that is correct, there is no method of adjusting Toe. Or none that I can see.
    I set it up on level ground and planted a willing volunteer in the drivers seat. Then set the forward spokes at level using the string level - a bit hairy because the hooks had been removed previously.
    Any hoo. The first reading gave 720mm front and 724mm rear (spoke to spoke withe the tape abutting the rim).
    I rolled the trike forward one revolution and remeasured.
    This time the readings were 722mm front and 723mm rear; near enough for me.

    facetious? Yeah I got that one And you got mine?? All good.
    The upside of a decent width profile is any tail wind will assist and that has to be a positive, right?
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    Last edited by slow_runner; 06-30-2019 at 04:17 AM.

  4. #14
    The differences you got was because you are using a quick release hub. They have to be a bit loose for the button to work. hence the different measurements, really small difference.. Depending how old this bike is, the old early Quickies didn't have adjustable camber because camber was just being introduced to the wheelchair world. If your axle sleeves have a flat spot on each side, that's how you adjust the camber. One wheel at a time. Once the adjustable camber bar came out then both wheels would adjust jointly.

    It was a real drag trying to adjust separate wheel cambered bikes back then. Especially when we were using 16 and 20o cambers. Would take hours sometimes getting each wheel right. You seem really close and well within the range for toe. Big plus there. Are those high pressure tires( around 100 lbs.)? High pressure tires make a big difference in rolling resistance. I pretty sure you know that though.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
    The differences you got was because you are using a quick release hub. They have to be a bit loose for the button to work. hence the different measurements, really small difference.. Depending how old this bike is, the old early Quickies didn't have adjustable camber because camber was just being introduced to the wheelchair world. If your axle sleeves have a flat spot on each side, that's how you adjust the camber. One wheel at a time. Once the adjustable camber bar came out then both wheels would adjust jointly.

    It was a real drag trying to adjust separate wheel cambered bikes back then. Especially when we were using 16 and 20o cambers. Would take hours sometimes getting each wheel right. You seem really close and well within the range for toe. Big plus there. Are those high pressure tires( around 100 lbs.)? High pressure tires make a big difference in rolling resistance. I pretty sure you know that though.
    Gidday Patrick
    Yes, there is a bit of accumulative movement with QR and I imagine, maybe some attributed to spoke flex.
    The sleeves do have flats but I believe that they are for aiding in adjustment of the wheel track.
    I had measured the threaded axle sleeves earlier to determine if there was any axial difference (angle) What I detected was naff all that could be attributed to any design for Toe adjustment. Having said that, maybe I will revisit it, mark where any difference is and see if rotating the sleeves has any marked effect.
    Add: there is no mention in the online manual for Toe adjustment either. Unlike the Top End Excelerator manual which explains in depth.
    I would be interested to see an adjustable camber bar for the Shadow. Did they straighten the axle tube as per the Top End?

    The tyres are bog standard 65 p.s.i max that will make do until I need to replace. I do have a Marathon that could be substituted but my intention at this point is to use these until they require replacing. A good plan or not??
    Last edited by slow_runner; 06-30-2019 at 05:29 AM.

  6. #16
    Hey Patrick, do the mach2 and onward Quickies have inserts that allow Toe adjust?

  7. #17
    The toe adjust is done by using a square and lining it up so no space between square edge and flat edge of the axle sleeve SR. Wheel tracking and Toe in/out are the same thing as far as i know. Wheel tracking is probably the term your side of the world calls
    what we use as Toe in/out. Yes, I think there are. I rarely used an upright but set up quite a few for others. Jim Martinson, original owner of Shadow, was a good friend of mine. He sold to Quickie. I thik there was a Quickie Shadow upright that used a camber bar. Been so long, the brain cells are well...not what they used to be. I was always in a recumbent Top End or Freedom Ryder. The lean steer Freddom Ryder is a blast to ride especially leaning into a turn at high speeds.

  8. #18
    Toe-in or out down this way Patrick. As I understand the term, tracking is the behaviour; still, we know what we are speaking of aye.
    I am familiar with the method to adjust the TiLite using the camber tube with inserts and achieving a Toe that enables the most stable steering. When I have set them up I use a small engineers level (very accurate) with bubbles in both planes referenced to the flats you spoke of. If the chair is on a level surface it is easier for me than using large rafter squares.
    With reference to the possibility of a Quickie Shadow upright that used a camber bar, that would be difficult given that the rear axle is splayed to achieve camber and fully welded to the frame spine.
    If the threaded axle sleeves were made to achieve/adjust Toe - and referenced to a datum on the axle tube, it would be a relatively easy set-up to achieve. Good enough for its purpose, I think.
    As it is, in my instance, the Toe is pretty well spot on and testament to the accuracy of the jigging and welding in creating this frame.
    IMO Jim Martinson made a bloody good unit in the Shadow.
    It's easy for me to access. It has a strong Chrome Moly frame, nice welding, has good quality components, and accurate assembly.
    Also, I think that the Shadow load rating is on the conservative side while the Top End is not
    My recollection of the Top End I tested out was that the frame was lumpy mig welded, no TIG in sight, ugh!. Maybe made in China?
    I am digressing...
    Am I sounding like the Shadow hand-cycle evangelist??
    Last edited by slow_runner; 06-30-2019 at 06:55 PM.

  9. #19
    The toe is really spot on SR. THe only way you could improve it would be with threaded axels. I don't think they'd make much difference on an upright. Would be cool though. Is this a Quickie Shadow or a Shadow? The early one were put together well for sure.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
    The toe is really spot on SR. THe only way you could improve it would be with threaded axels. I don't think they'd make much difference on an upright. Would be cool though. Is this a Quickie Shadow or a Shadow? The early one were put together well for sure.
    It says "SHADOW by Quickie" on the down-tube Patrick.
    The crappy upholstery has a sewn on identity showing the same
    " SHADOW by Quickie "
    Manufactured Jan 29, 1996.
    Is that an early Jim Martinson unit that might qualify as one of the better built units?
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