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Thread: They finally delivered my new wheelchair

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by August West View Post
    After 2+ years, they finally delivered my wheelchair. Everything seems fine except one thing. They painted the titanium black. It looks pretty cool. But that paint is never going to hold up. Last time I had a painted chair must have been over 20 years ago. Part of me wants to keep it. But the other part of me knows better.
    2+ years?!?! I'm almost curious to know how it's even possible for an order to take that long to process, but the answer will probably only upset me. For TiLite's part, the build time is only about 10 business days. I go through the TiLite order form line-by-line with my customers and they receive a copy of the order form as we're tweaking things and certainly before it's submitted for fabrication. It seems like most DMEs don't want to "show their work"; they frequently don't pass along the CAD drawings (which astounds me as it protects all 3 parties: customer, DME, and TiLite); and customers are frequently "under-involving" themselves in what in my opinion can only be a collaborative process.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen212 View Post
    2+ years?!?! I'm almost curious to know how it's even possible for an order to take that long to process, but the answer will probably only upset me. For TiLite's part, the build time is only about 10 business days. I go through the TiLite order form line-by-line with my customers and they receive a copy of the order form as we're tweaking things and certainly before it's submitted for fabrication. It seems like most DMEs don't want to "show their work"; they frequently don't pass along the CAD drawings (which astounds me as it protects all 3 parties: customer, DME, and TiLite); and customers are frequently "under-involving" themselves in what in my opinion can only be a collaborative process.
    Truth! After a 3 week wait on any response from my DME I called to speak to the clerk who handles much of it. She said they were ready to submit the order, which, given other information, could have been done 2 weeks ago. Whoa! I asked for a copy and explained I will go over it line by line this weekend. It is much more obtuse than the order form on Spinlife or Sportaide. Sigh. Measurements were not included in what she sent.

    Simply monitoring the process is going to require I be full brain-functional. Be gone, TBI! Per your comments, Stephen, I will ask to see the CAD drawings. I would almost prefer to do business with you, since I am in the Coachella Valley, but driving across the valley is 1000% easier than driving into LA. Where is your office, Stephen? I tried to send a PM but your mailbox is full.
    Last edited by Tetracyclone; 06-08-2019 at 01:37 PM. Reason: more info

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetracyclone View Post
    Truth! After a 3 week wait on any response from my DME I called to speak to the clerk who handles much of it. She said they were ready to submit the order, which, given other information, could have been done 2 weeks ago. Whoa! I asked for a copy and explained I will go over it line by line this weekend. It is much more obtuse than the order form on Spinlife or Sportaide. Sigh. Measurements were not included in what she sent.

    Simply monitoring the process is going to require I be full brain-functional. Be gone, TBI! Per your comments, Stephen, I will ask to see the CAD drawings. I would almost prefer to do business with you, since I am in the Coachella Valley, but driving across the valley is 1000% easier than driving into LA. Where is your office, Stephen? I tried to send a PM but your mailbox is full.
    My "office" is in my bedroom in Los Angeles. Bike-On's sales reps are distributed throughout the solar system.
    The mailbox on CC is pain -- it has very limited storage and cleaning out old messages is not my idea of fun or anywhere near the top of my to-do list. The preferred way to reach me is to email me: stephen@bike-on.com

    Just so you know, Bike-On does not accept insurance or Medicare.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
    Two things are most likely IMO: DME meant that all T chairs start as Aero T on order form, but get upgrades via options to a TR, or, they meant it had to be submitted as an Aero T because...drum roll please...the Jan 2018 unbundling rules came out during the middle of your process (since its been years) changing their ability to select the TR titanium option.
    The first thing is what they said - start as AeroT and upgrade. The last DME who ordered the chair I am in right now also said the same thing. As expected, I got a TR3. So there was no need for concern about the ordering process. If they wanted to deliver an adjustable chair, they should have said so. But all along the discussion was about a TR3 but they delivered an AeroT. I don't mind an adjustable chair if the weight is the same or less as a non-adjustable chair. But I don't see how that is possible. In any case, they should still say something. Worst part of the whole thing is that the objective of this new chair was to reduce weight and dimension, both for my shoulders. Hence, I can't see how they could justify giving me a heavier chair. Defeats the purpose.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    Absolutely. You're receiving incredibly poor service. I can't even get into the headspace of some of the DME jackasses we've read about on this board. It literally boggles the mind. I mostly think it comes down to them misunderstanding how important the "little things" are to us.

    E.g. When I went for the ZR, couldn't get it, knew that ahead of time though, and the DME came back with, "We can do the same chair just in aluminum." What he MEANT to say, was, "We can do a completely different model chair, that looks similar, from the same company, but none of the 3 most important options you wanted will be available on the new model."

    They didn't seem understand that's not "the same chair in aluminum", nor what those seemingly simple options meant to me and my daily chair pushing/lifting experience. It's literally their job to understand this stuff, and know the differences. I suspect they DO know and understand but assume we DONT. (I'd bet a lot of their mobility business doesn't consist in folks like us: savvy, smart, and knowledgeable about our needs and available options.)








    Quote Originally Posted by August West View Post
    The first thing is what they said - start as AeroT and upgrade. The last DME who ordered the chair I am in right now also said the same thing. As expected, I got a TR3. So there was no need for concern about the ordering process. If they wanted to deliver an adjustable chair, they should have said so. But all along the discussion was about a TR3 but they delivered an AeroT. I don't mind an adjustable chair if the weight is the same or less as a non-adjustable chair. But I don't see how that is possible. In any case, they should still say something. Worst part of the whole thing is that the objective of this new chair was to reduce weight and dimension, both for my shoulders. Hence, I can't see how they could justify giving me a heavier chair. Defeats the purpose.
    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

    "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

    "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
    Absolutely. You're receiving incredibly poor service. I can't even get into the headspace of some of the DME jackasses we've read about on this board. It literally boggles the mind. I mostly think it comes down to them misunderstanding how important the "little things" are to us.

    E.g. When I went for the ZR, couldn't get it, knew that ahead of time though, and the DME came back with, "We can do the same chair just in aluminum." What he MEANT to say, was, "We can do a completely different model chair, that looks similar, from the same company, but none of the 3 most important options you wanted will be available on the new model."

    They didn't seem understand that's not "the same chair in aluminum", nor what those seemingly simple options meant to me and my daily chair pushing/lifting experience. It's literally their job to understand this stuff, and know the differences. I suspect they DO know and understand but assume we DONT. (I'd bet a lot of their mobility business doesn't consist in folks like us: savvy, smart, and knowledgeable about our needs and available options.)
    Yes!

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
    Absolutely. You're receiving incredibly poor service. I can't even get into the headspace of some of the DME jackasses we've read about on this board. It literally boggles the mind. I mostly think it comes down to them misunderstanding how important the "little things" are to us.
    You got that right. I asked how much heavier this chair is. He replied not much. Website says frame is 2 lbs heavier. That may not seem like much to him lifting it up while he’s standing and using his legs and core. But I’m lifting it sitting down, with an extended arm, no legs muscles, and limited core muscles. In which case, 2lbs is a big difference.

  8. #18
    I did see a new satin finish TR that was labeled as an Aero T back when TiLite moved the Aero T, TRA, and TR to a single order form to make it easier for end users to pay out-of-pocket for the titanium an TiFit upgrades. Maybe that explains it, but I have my doubts.

    Using that order form, it could be possible to get a black chair if a satin finish was selected, but the TRA & TR checkboxes were not selected in the original specs. That could be interpreted by TiLite as specs for an Aero T with an incompatible color selection. If that were the case, they would have provided an Aero T quote using the default color selection. The quote would have included a note that there was an incompatible option, what they changed to provide a workable quote, and asked for verification. These comments are sometimes referred to as exclusions and must be "cleared" by the dealer before the they can convert the quote to an order.

    Exclusions occur when a selected option isn't compatible with other selections, additional options are required, or the option is no longer available.

    Some may wonder why the manufacturer would change something like color in the original specs, and still send the quote. Simply put, they receive order forms that have incompatible selections all the time. Unless there is a "show stopper" error, it is far more efficient to go ahead and send a workable quote with the default selections (noting exclusions), than it would be to contact the dealer. Once the dealer receives the quote and sees the exclusion, all they need to do is contact the manufacturer to make any necessary revisions.

    While this scenario doesn't necessarily explain what happened in your case, there were numerous points where this should have been caught if it did. It's the ultimately the dealer's responsibility to ensure that any specs are accurate and are likely to result in a chair that meets their client's needs. They are the people responsible for keeping you in the loop. If it turned out they went with an Aero T without your knowledge, you absolutely should have been consulted. If it turned out they didn't select the correct box to get a TR on the order form, then they didn't pay attention when they received the quote. They should have at least asked you what color.

    Realize that obtaining accurate specs for this type equipment is a very difficult thing to do. Even the most knowledgeable, customer-focused, detail-oriented among us make mistakes and need to clear an occasional exclusion. There is so little margin for error. While I actually enjoy the challenge, spec'ing a TiLite rigid frame is more stressful for me than any of the highly complex powerchairs I do that cost many times more.

    While it may be up to the DME to verify the specs, end users inevitably have to live with the consequences. Sometime in the coming weeks, I'll post a separate thread that discusses ways that end users can reduce the risk of specification errors.
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    Last edited by SCI_OTR; 06-09-2019 at 06:31 PM. Reason: Added order form pic


  9. #19
    Thanks. That's very useful info. The bigger issue than the paint is the weight. I can't see an adjustable chair being lighter than a non-adjustable chair. I was considering living with the paint. But no way I'm accepting a heavier chair. Reducing size and weight was the objective of the order.

  10. #20
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    An adjustable chair will never be lighter than the same model that isn't and I've never seen a black chair frame that didn't look like garbage after a few years. I agree you should send it back.

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