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Thread: Anyone have a 75 degree front angle?

  1. #11
    I'm learning new stuff. I always thought the front downward bend started at the same place regardless of front approach angle, and that by choosing a 75 degree over a 90 degree simply made the chair longer. I stand corrected. I have a T4 SCI. My first chair was an old box style Quickie GPV with a 75 degree front angle and a very mild dump. I was quite stable in that chair but the chair was a bit too long in certain circumstances. For my next chair after that I chose a Kuschall Champion with 24" rear wheels and a 90 degree front angle hoping to reduce my footprint because I had been experiencing issues fitting into bathroom stalls and couldn't get close enough to the table in some restaurants. The Kuschall definitely had a smaller footprint but I kept falling out forward when my front casters would fetch up on a small pebble or I tried to pick something up in front of my chair. To solve that problem I dialed in a lot of dump. While that solved my stability issue, it made me so short that I couldn't reach much at the grocery stores. I also couldn't make my casters perpendicular to the ground (because back then the assemblies where welded in place like the Invacare Top Ends) so my front would dip and raise when going from forward to backward. Anyway, I really learned a lot from that Kuschall chair--mostly how not to order a chair. It was a really was a well made high quality chair. ...I just didn't know enough about ordering chairs at the time.
    Last edited by fasdude; 10-02-2017 at 12:44 PM.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by rAdGie View Post
    looking at those cads id rather have the 90 degree version as knee protectors :P you could tell them your cushion is 1 - 2 inches shorter than it actually is? then when you put it on you will have the 90 degree frame and it will start as it leaves your cushion, does that make sense?
    Makes perfect sense. But there's a catch. Reducing the seat tube length 2" with a 90 degree angle places the front caster under the rear wheels, which presents stability issues. Hence the more you reduce the depth the more you have to reduce the front angle.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by fasdude View Post
    I'm learning new stuff. I always thought the front downward bend started at the same place regardless of front approach angle, and that by choosing a 75 degree over a 90 degree simply made the chair longer. I stand corrected. I have a T4 SCI. My first chair was an old box style Quickie GPV with a 75 degree front angle and a very mild dump. I was quite stable in that chair but the chair was a bit too long in certain circumstances. For my next chair after that I chose a Kuschall Champion with 24" rear wheels and a 90 degree front angle hoping to reduce my footprint because I had been experiencing issues fitting into bathroom stalls and couldn't get close enough to the table in some restaurants. The Kuschall definitely had a smaller footprint but I kept falling out forward when my front casters would fetch up on a small pebble or I tried to pick something up in front of my chair. To solve that problem I dialed in a lot of dump. While that solved my stability issue, it made me so short that I couldn't reach much at the grocery stores. I also couldn't make my casters perpendicular to the ground (because back then the assemblies where welded in place like the Invacare Top Ends) so my front would dip and raise when going from forward to backward. Anyway, I really learned a lot from that Kuschall chair--mostly how not to order a chair. It was a really was a well made high quality chair. ...I just didn't know enough about ordering chairs at the time.
    All good points. It's a trade-off. There's no perfect solution. Another problem with casters not normal (perpendicular to the ground) is that they resist turning side to side, which stresses your wrists.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by August West View Post
    Makes perfect sense. But there's a catch. Reducing the seat tube length 2" with a 90 degree angle places the front caster under the rear wheels, which presents stability issues. Hence the more you reduce the depth the more you have to reduce the front angle.
    you cant have both im afraid, i made my chair as small as possible width as well as length and im glad i did as if it wasnt for doing that theres places i would of struggled to get to, i got more dump in mine now so less likely to tip forward, i compromised plus never thought of what if i tip forward, the further out the castors the more stable you will be, also something that might not have been mentioned is the rear wheels, the more forward you can have them the shorter the chair, but then you will have a tippy chair and also the size of the rear wheels, every little helps :P

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by rAdGie View Post
    you cant have both im afraid, i made my chair as small as possible width as well as length and im glad i did as if it wasnt for doing that theres places i would of struggled to get to, i got more dump in mine now so less likely to tip forward, i compromised plus never thought of what if i tip forward, the further out the castors the more stable you will be, also something that might not have been mentioned is the rear wheels, the more forward you can have them the shorter the chair, but then you will have a tippy chair and also the size of the rear wheels, every little helps :P
    I have to reduce transfer distance because of my shoulder. Transfers never used to be a problem until recently (34 years post injury). I don't suppose it's going to get any easier over time. The critical dimension for me is the distance between the front of the cushion and the front of the wheelchair so that I can reduce transfer distance. For this I am willing to live with a wheelchair that is a little forward tippy. There will be a learning curve to adjust to the changes in balance. I have to be careful not to take a header. Otherwise, like all things over time I will get used to a wheelchair that is forward tippy.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by August West View Post
    I have to reduce transfer distance because of my shoulder. Transfers never used to be a problem until recently (34 years post injury). I don't suppose it's going to get any easier over time. The critical dimension for me is the distance between the front of the cushion and the front of the wheelchair so that I can reduce transfer distance. For this I am willing to live with a wheelchair that is a little forward tippy. There will be a learning curve to adjust to the changes in balance. I have to be careful not to take a header. Otherwise, like all things over time I will get used to a wheelchair that is forward tippy.
    That is very interesting, i am also just over 34 years post injury and beginning to have shoulder problems. Between the weight i have gained and the bad shoulder(s) transfers are getting rough. Every 6months i get a cortisone shot in my right one, have you gone that far yet? I am slowly shopping for chairs and my biggest gripe is how far out front casters stick! Right now im in an old Quickie Carbon, not many have even seen this model as much as owned one, and ive been in it since 1995!! lol Back to the wide casters, looking at like a TiLite ZRA the front casters are out as wide as the rear wheels, heck i dont even think i would be able to get in close enough to transfer into my shower chair. Im at a real crossroads as this chair has seen better days, though i do still get comments on it everyday. Im going to follow this thread and watch your progress as front angle is yet another issue im going to have to deal with.

    Good Luck!
    -OC

  7. #17
    I get cortisone shots every 4 months. The first month is great. The pain sets in by the second month, but not bad. By the end of the 3rd month the pain is bad and affecting transfers. I try to wait until the end of the 4th month for the next shot. My doctor wants a 2 shot annual limit. Given my circumstances he'll let me push it to 3 or 4. But I am concerned about damaging the shoulder with too much cortisone so I try to keep it to 3 rather than 4. Problem is each transfer results in microtrauma which impedes healing. I started using a transfer board in my car, the longest and hardest transfer. That's been a big help. It's giving the cortisone more time to heal the shoulder. By reducing stresses to the shoulder and increasing shoulder strength I may be able to reduce the amount of cortisone. I am also considering plasma rich protein therapy.

  8. #18
    I know what you mean about the casters. Casters and the footrest are often the limiting factor of how close you can get to your transfer target. Other times the front angle bend is the limiting factor. An example of the casters limiting the transfer distance is the car. An example of the front angle bend limiting the transfer distance is a futon. Because a futon has open space underneath for the footrest and casters. TiLiite doesn't want to build the chair this way and they won't communicate with me about it. This has been holding up the order for months. The DME is of no help. The only value they're adding is processing the order. Customer service just isn't important when you're in Medicare. Because they have a monopoly. Rather than waiting for another 6 months, the more practical solution may be a transfer board. But I can't take that everywhere plus there is another problem. After 34 years my hip joints have loosened and my knees want to fall right into the front angle bend, which is dangerous. Because I can't always get the knee out if its' too far in there. Then I have to go the ground before getting back up. That's the last thing I need with the bad shoulder.

  9. #19

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
    From previous threads here, mostly by SCI_OTR, I clearly recall him indicating that Tilite adds +1" to the tubing, prior to the bend, when selecting a 90deg. frame. So, switching to an 85deg frame would start the bend 1" farther back.

    Perhaps an even more important measurement (at least for fit), is what's been called "occupied frame length", which is the distance between the leading edge of the backrest and the leading edge of the footrest.

    Altering the front end angles will change this, often significantly. While you may end up with the clearance you want at the top of the bend, your feet and knees will be bent differently and in different locations than they are currently.

    I would suggest starting with the desired "occupied frame length" and allowing the other dimensions be derived from that.

    This could enable having the most possible top side clearance while maintaining your seated fit.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.


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