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Thread: Permobil F3/M3

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    Which is more maneuverable, M3 versus F3 really depends on the footplates one needs to be positioned without frogging. If you can tolerate narrow footplates, the M series will be more maneuverable in tight areas. If you need the wider footplates, caster interference issues will require the legrests to be elevated 20-30 degrees for normal driving. The M3 also seems a little faster than advertised--I'm tending to see ~6.3 MPH.
    For me the footplate doesn't make a difference because I got a F3 with a wider footplate and due to not having front castors I can get to things more easy and the castors do not get in the way.

    Closer to doors, sink, refrigerator, oven, bathroom etc.

    I know for me it took 90 days to get comfortable with front wheel drive but one I did it totally out maneuvers my m300 or my Pride edge 1.0.

    Again personal experience coming from mid wheels with 15 years experience.

    Last mid wheels still have a tendency to get stuck in challenging places with elevation, gravel, dirt rock or wet grass or steep short inclines. Never an issue with front wheel F3/F5

  2. #12
    With respect to maneuverability in close quarters, I stand by my post.

    If the wheelbase is shorter and approximately half the chair is on either side of the axis of rotation, it will turn in a tighter space. One real world example is the aisles between the wire racks in the storage room at work. I can turn an M3 around in the aisle while an F3 turned sideways exceeds the width of the aisle.

    One has to be careful about about making generalizations. It all depends on the specific model and configuration.
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  3. #13
    Case in point. There are significant differences the footprints of the M3 and the M5. The differences between the M3 and M5 are much greater than the differences between an F3 and F5. There are definitely trade offs that should be carefully weighed
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdman View Post
    Let's examine what I said which was "inaccurate"... because I'm seriously bored enough to play the game "mess with jerk troll"...




    Your F3 goes 6 mph. This one is 5. I posted nothing about your F3. So no I was not incorrect and you are being a jerk.




    A non jerk would have replied in a thoughtfull manner instead of egotistism, beligerance, arrogance and jerkdom.

    I'm starting to remember why I don't post here. My bad. Heading back to jerk free zones.

    BIRDMAN;

    Now I will say I do not always agree with Roll Positive, but he is a long time chair user. I see his opinions on a couple of sites. However, your chair can likely be programmed to move/ travel at 6 MPH.

    You seem to place a lot of faith in your DME supplier. I don't know him/her. But as a general rule I think of them as sales people, not knowledgeable mechanics, but parts changers and sales people. Further sales people will say whatever suits their purpose, actual; knowledge and truth has little or nothing to do with their spoken words. Now be aware that some (damned few) of these people know of what they speak. There are a larger smattering who actually know a bit but are often blinded by their sales commissions, not the service they can provide.

    I have no real interest in the models you have written about but in my opinion you have been very rude to Roll Positive. HE gave you his opinion and perhaps some actual experience with one of the models. Fact; SPEED of most chairs can be set with a controller programmer. The motors are simple DC permanent magnet motors the amount of volts permitted by the controller regulates to get to the motor. The amperage actually creates the drive power developed by them. If you had an electronic controller that "Could" allow more than 24 volts to access these motors they could gain far more RPM's. They are just DC motors (variable speed according to voltage) I do hope I haven't bored you or confused you.

    Calling a person a jerk is rude. You had a difference of "OPINION" with him and he with you. Most of us are pretty definite in our opinions. Especially when it comes to our chairs, since we spend most in not all of the waking moments of our lives in one. In my home I use a now ancient Invacare X without any front riggings, to make my home more accessible. There well be another kind of chair which would be better for my use. However, MOST dealerships, and their vultures make reasonable shopping for me impossible. I supply my own financing, NOT Government or private Insurance financing. SO I do not have the resources to be an expert, and from my limited experience the sales force of the Manufacturers are not honest (In MY Opinion) Nor are most "SALESPEOPLE" their prime interest is sales and money. Not their false sympathies.

    Roll Positive can often come across as stern, but when he had an opposing opinion, and experience, you could not accept that. Give it a rest! Few if any of us are absolute experts on all sorts of Powered wheelchairs. Just read and learn what others opinions are.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sullivan View Post
    BIRDMAN;

    Now I will say I do not always agree with Roll Positive, but he is a long time chair user. I see his opinions on a couple of sites. However, your chair can likely be programmed to move/ travel at 6 MPH.

    You seem to place a lot of faith in your DME supplier. I don't know him/her. But as a general rule I think of them as sales people, not knowledgeable mechanics, but parts changers and sales people. Further sales people will say whatever suits their purpose, actual; knowledge and truth has little or nothing to do with their spoken words. Now be aware that some (damned few) of these people know of what they speak. There are a larger smattering who actually know a bit but are often blinded by their sales commissions, not the service they can provide.

    I have no real interest in the models you have written about but in my opinion you have been very rude to Roll Positive. HE gave you his opinion and perhaps some actual experience with one of the models. Fact; SPEED of most chairs can be set with a controller programmer. The motors are simple DC permanent magnet motors the amount of volts permitted by the controller regulates to get to the motor. The amperage actually creates the drive power developed by them. If you had an electronic controller that "Could" allow more than 24 volts to access these motors they could gain far more RPM's. They are just DC motors (variable speed according to voltage) I do hope I haven't bored you or confused you.

    Calling a person a jerk is rude. You had a difference of "OPINION" with him and he with you. Most of us are pretty definite in our opinions. Especially when it comes to our chairs, since we spend most in not all of the waking moments of our lives in one. In my home I use a now ancient Invacare X without any front riggings, to make my home more accessible. There well be another kind of chair which would be better for my use. However, MOST dealerships, and their vultures make reasonable shopping for me impossible. I supply my own financing, NOT Government or private Insurance financing. SO I do not have the resources to be an expert, and from my limited experience the sales force of the Manufacturers are not honest (In MY Opinion) Nor are most "SALESPEOPLE" their prime interest is sales and money. Not their false sympathies.

    Roll Positive can often come across as stern, but when he had an opposing opinion, and experience, you could not accept that. Give it a rest! Few if any of us are absolute experts on all sorts of Powered wheelchairs. Just read and learn what others opinions are.


    Thank you Bob for the kind words....not trying to come off as anything other then just an experienced user...many times we talk to people that get bad advice from manufactures, DME ATM or just other users that really dont understand what there chair can do or is capable of doing.


    When you read Birdmans 1st post you can tell being a user of an F series that his issues are from not understanding how front wheel drive works to his advantage or the chair is not programmed for his skill set and or maximum performance.

    The fact that the chair comes standard at 6mph tells me he as a temporary user didnt understand the DME should have reprogrammed it to 6 and then the user can slow it down at the joystick to match his talent.

    If mid wheel is a preference then by all means go for it!

    Having come from 5 years in an Pride Edge and 2 years in a m300 the F3 will out preform in every measurement from maneuverability in tight areas, not get stuck in short steep inclines, not get stuck in wet grass, mud or deep gravel.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RollPositive View Post
    Having come from 5 years in an Pride Edge and 2 years in a m300 the F3 will out preform in every measurement from maneuverability in tight areas, not get stuck in short steep inclines, not get stuck in wet grass, mud or deep gravel.
    The M300 and Q6 Edge are different than the M3, so they should not be part of this comparison. If one can fit on narrow footplates, the M3 will have a tighter turning radius than an identically spec'd F3. The chairs in this pic are close to scale. I should note that the seat depth of the M3 is 2" shorter (18 -vs- 20"). Even if we increased the seat depth by 2", the M3 would still have the tighter turning radius.
    Attached Images Attached Images  


  7. #17
    Got my F3 yesterday. As much as the elevator feature which I had on my C300 was convenient for certain things, such as banking and the library, I am glad I did not get it on this chair, as driving would have been completely unreasonable. My C300 was 17.5" STF in the front and the vendor was able to drop down the pan in the rear, so that the rear STF was about 17".

    The F3 without the elevator was supposed to be 17.5" but is closer to 18"and there is no possibility of changing the rear pan STF, so it's 18"as well. This is a full inch difference between my C300 and the F3. I was already having some difficulty seeing out of my Honda Odyssey, now it is definitely more obstructed, since I am sitting higher.

    I am not a fan of the controls, which lump together the mode and profile buttons. This necessitates cycling through the various options to get what you want. I did get the memory seat program which seems to be pretty decent. It allows you three preset settings of any combination of leg elevation, tilt, and recline. So the holding the joystick in one position it can take you all the way back to full tilt, leg rest elevation and full recline for pressure relief. There are three settings available. I will probably have the other two removed from the menu system, as it seems more of a pain in the ass than anything else, unless you have real defined positional settings.

    The ski slope upward curve on the control hits things and I have trouble fitting under some tables and sinks which I had elevated.

    I got the Invacare matrix elite deep back. It offers 6 inches of depth, lateral support, and scapular cutouts for shoulder mobility.

    My vendor was able to get me group 24 batteries and the gel armrests. I got 13 inch armrests, but they are a bit short. I should have gotten 16 and let the excess hang out the back.

    The motors are a bit jumpy inside.

    I tried to attach two pictures, but couldn't, if interested PM me and I can forward them to you.

    All this waiting and I was hoping for a substantial improvement over the C300. We'll just have to wait and see and get used to it. One thing for sure, I am glad I didn't use a power chair during my working years, as the constant maneuvering in an office would have been extremely difficult, though getting to and from the office from the parking lot would have been easier, as well as keeping up with my buddies during lunchtime walks.

  8. #18
    On my Permobil I have a separate row of toggle switches mounted between the joystick and the front of the armrest. These toggles control recline, tilt, legrest and elevator separately. It's more convenient than trying to use the mode/profile menu.

    Also, I have a swingaway joystick, which is useful for cramped situations.

    Based on your comments, maybe look into getting these two items if you don't have them already?

    I use elevator all the time and would miss it. Well not all the time, but it's more that when I need it it makes things much more convenient. I use it for sitting in bars, for cooking, sometimes for reaching things. It's a shame it would have raised your seat-to-floor too much.

    Please keep us apprised of your experiences though.

  9. #19
    To bad you don't have anterior tilt. Without it there are many things I couldn't get under and using a Ride custom cushion puts me way up.

  10. #20
    Anterior tilt would have required the same additional inch as the elevator, which I knew I couldn't afford in terms of a visual field out the windshield. I do have the retractable joystick. I raised my bathroom sink and a pull under counter in my kitchen just so I can pull under it without retracting the joystick. I find the constant pushing out to the side and then pulling back in of the joystick is a major irritant to my wrist, the back of my hand, and then my anterior shoulder pulling it back in.

    If I am doing any sustained work at a desk or eating I do retract the joystick. One of the best things I invested in was an electric high low desk and I can adjust for working in various chairs or various Heights for various purposes, such as writing checks versus keyboarding.

    Does anybody have an aftermarket back? I find that the recline feature is a bit rough and catchy. I don't know whether he needs to be adjusted or whether this is the norm.

    I could try to gain an inch by going with the new 3 inch roho. I currently use a four-inch quadtro and my skin has been okay. It would be a shame to have to have a slightly lower level of skin protection in order to gain a bit more functionality.

    Now I can see why some people are seen in old power chairs. If it works for them and the parts is still available, then you might as well use it for as long as you can.

    Now with the backup power chair, I have to manage maintenance on that as well, being sure to keep it charged and use it. I guess once per week.

    For those with backup power chairs, what is your protocol for usage and charging?

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