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Thread: Windows 11?

  1. #1

    Windows 11?

    Apple has been stuck with MacOS X 10 for some time only updating minor version if your hardware is supported. This was Microsoft's plans for Windows 10, but uptake has been so poor that Windows 11 is now in the pipeline. However, if Windows 11 is still going to be NT based then this too will be stillborn.

    NT means New Technology. Apparently, Microsoft thinks that 1940s technology is new technology. (OS development has been taking place since the 1950s.)

    My introduction to Mac started with System 7 and 8 at home. These used Creator ID to associate applications via the Finder in a similar way that Unix allows capabilities via Supplementary Groups and device files. Classic Mac OS just worked like other Non-Microsoft systems. Prior to that, I was integrating WFWG 3.11 and NT 4 into Samba NT domains using various flavours of Unix. We were an IBM (AIX) and Unix (Solaris) shop for critical applications and had actual terminals for critical application deployment.

    Dragged everyone kicking and screaming through Windows 9X, 2000 and XP. Realised the futility of sticking with Microsoft and so rolled out SunRay on Solaris for certain classes of users. The accountants still had their Excel, but we charged a lot more per PC seat than a SunRay seat.

    A loyal Microsoft user was explaining that everyone used to use the same version and now they do not. My reply was that with each version being worse than those before it, it is getting harder and harder. Old Windows was like bashing your head against a padded cell. New Windows is like bashing your head against concrete or thick steel.

    Use of Microsoft Windows is now unequivocally counter productive. If you use it then you are either wasting your own time or someone else's.

    As I maintain that Windows is just a monitor (not much more than DOS) with a GDI and a whole load of wrappers to waste CPU cycles, the monitor part could easily be replaced with a small library that can be run under an Operating System (OS).

    The simple fix is to provide a wrapper for an actual OS that can manage resources. I know that Microsoft would not be interested in GPL GNU/Linux and LGPL WINE, but they could port their ABIs and APIs to FreeBSD, which though not free as in freedom has an excellent filesystem (ufs2 or 5xbsd) and hardware support. You can fork BSD and not have to share which is sort of what Apple has done with MacOS X.

    This would allow native Unix/POSIX apps to use the FreeBSD runtime and X11. Windows programs could run alongside via the wrapper.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window...ce_Environment

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)

    https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/sta...-broadway.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven

    I use Debian GNU/Linux and have taken Chrome, Drive, etc. from the previous Chrome OS install on the machine with me.

    Google do cloud better as both files and apps are hosted on servers with fibre network connections. Free software also has Broadway which can also push GUI apps via HTML 5. All that is needed for the desktop is just enough GNU/Linux to run Chrome. Your work just follows you where ever you login to Chrome. This is a good solution for the corporate desktop.

    Apple also does cloud, but you need Pages, Numbers and/or Key Note installed on each device and must push morbidly obese Office files over the Internet.

    I use free LibreOffice and Gnumeric on Apple MacOS and GNU/Linux as I am used to those apps.
    Last edited by zagam; 01-23-2017 at 04:03 AM. Reason: Up to 11

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by zagam View Post
    A loyal Microsoft user was explaining that everyone used to use the same version and now they do not. My reply was that with each version being worse than those before it, it is getting harder and harder. Old Windows was like bashing your head against a padded cell. New Windows is like bashing your head against concrete or thick steel.

    Use of Microsoft Windows is now unequivocally counter productive. If you use it then you are either wasting your own time or someone else's.
    Wow get over the microsoft hate. I have a surface book, 3000x2000 touch display, i7 processor, 16gb of RAM and 1tb SSD. It can drive two external monitors (I have two of these https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IOO4TIM). I run Vmware workstation and do my dev work on an Ubuntu VM that I allocate 8gb of ram to. All this in when I pop off the keyboad, basically a tablet.

    Not only that with the touchscreen and pen, I never print out PDFs to scan and sign, just fill them in and send them off. It is an amazing piece of hardware (made and designed by MSFT) which has no peer currently and the UI for the touch screen is un-matched for a laptop. If I ran Linux as the base OS I would like 70% of the functionality.

    I spend probably 80% of my time on linux writing code, I would never think of writing software on a windows box. I also would never use Linux as the OS for my surface book. If you have a screw use a screwdriver. If you have a nail use a hammer. You sound like someone that hammers in screws. Sure, it works but it is not optimal.

    As for your deluded notion that Wine allows windows programs to run on Linux, try to break out of 2007 and join 2017. Are you a quad or someone who needs Dragon on speech assistance to type? If so please share how Dragon runs on Wine and its integration w/ Chrome, LibreOffice and any Email program. If not, maybe try it and see how that goes.

    Windows isn't my primary or my favorite OS but it does some thing very well, other things horribly. The things it does well are actually things that some people in the SCI community need and use and don't have alternative functionality on Linux (not a mac guy because in my opinion they are worse than Microsoft, by locking their OS to only run on their hardware if you want to go Mac you have to pay double for the same hardware you can get for a windows box).

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    The worst part about Mac users are the smug attitudes that proclaim it being far superior to PC's.
    By all means, if you feel you're getting a product by spending 40% or more, and doing so with lesser specs, and the inability to upgrade, then please do so. I just don't want to hear it.
    Rollin' since '89. Complete C8

  4. #4
    Senior Member bigtop1's Avatar
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    Too deep for me.
    I refuse to tip toe through life, only to arrive safely at death.

  5. #5

    WINE is the correct approach, but not the only solution

    Quote Originally Posted by t8burst View Post
    As for your deluded notion that Wine allows windows programs to run on Linux, try to break out of 2007 and join 2017.
    WINE is the correct approach to run Microsoft Windows applications, but WINE only emulates documented APIs and ABIs as the undocumented ones have not all been reverse engineered.

    As I said there is no way that Microsoft would be interested in contributing to LGPL WINE, but they own WISE and could subcontract out the work out to Harmon.ie who could use their Mainsoft just as Microsoft had subcontracted out the Edge work to Adobe. Adobe! Clench tight and keep your back to the wall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window...ce_Environment

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_(software)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainsoft

    https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/26

    https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/53

    Containers do not add the overhead of hardware faked with software or a fake OS to drive the fake hardware. Containers are a glorified chroot that also splits up /proc, /dev, etc. If you understand Unix permissions then Unix on Unix containers are totally superfluous.

    The IBM GNU/Linux-based virtualization uses the IOMMU to make real hardware available to AIX. AIX then drives the real hardware. The GNU/Linux based hypervisor is out of band. I.e. you can divvi real hardware for AIX and IBM i. IBM i has all of its IOSP VMs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiperSocket

    Solaris emulation works well on SPARC Linux (providing you steal the Solaris runtime). This is what I had on dual boot Solaris - Debian GNU/Linux box. This Unix on Unix case is pretty simple. Though superfluous it allowed me to run Solaris binaries in GNU/Linux without having to reboot. I actually had SRSS running under Debian GNU/Linux on SPARC.

    The Windows on Unix case has also been proven and I have used a number of products (WABI and Merge) over the years. I use WINE now for 3rd party Microsoft Windows apps. MS Office does not run and I don't care.

    Torvalds says that virtualization is evil. This is true if you already have Unix, but we have the practical problems of running legacy applications and binary only Unix software.

    I have run iBCS binaries locked to a single CPU thread on GNU/Linux too. We had old binary apps for SCO that I migrated to GNU/Linux.

    My laptop was a Chrome book so it was running just enough GNU/Linux to run Chrome. Now it's running Debian GNU/Linux and the hardware still works.

    Perhaps the solution if you can't see the sense of a machine running Microsoft is to get anything else as it will always be more useful.

    BTW the old 32bit G4 with AltiVec still whips x86 including SSE and AVX. I build SS3 for Celeron and AVX for i7. Apple jumping to Intel and worse still Effectively Fscked Itanic firmware makes no sense to me. As I said we are an IBM shop. I run rEFIt as I need BIOS to bash sense into my WinVidia for GNU/Linux on Mac. BOOTCAMP also does this for Microsoft Windows.

    Now it fair to say that Macs are expensive PeeCees, but they come with an OS that's usable. That matters less to me as I run free Debian GNU/Linux.

    PeeCee lusers basically have a few options:-

    Expensive: Skip the PeeCees and get Macs.

    Low cost: Get an app that runs on GNU/Linux or some flavour of BSD or Unix.

    Low fixed cost: Go over to Google cloud.
    Last edited by zagam; 01-24-2017 at 12:29 AM.

  6. #6
    "Wine is the correct approach"? You admit it doesn't work with Office (it also doesn't work with 90% of microsoft programs).

    Solaris, AIX? Dude, its 2017. Look, the only reason I responded to your nonsensical rant was that its simply bad advice. If a quad with limited hand control needs a computer, a windows box running dragon is the best solution. As for "virtualization is evil", you do realize that the "google cloud" you recommend is build entirely on virtualized containers that spin up and down based on load and need


    Quote Originally Posted by zagam View Post
    WINE is the correct approach to run Microsoft Windows applications, but WINE only emulates documented APIs and ABIs as the undocumented ones have not all been reverse engineered.

    As I said there is no way that Microsoft would be interested in contributing to LGPL WINE, but they own WISE and could subcontract out the work out to Harmon.ie who could use their Mainsoft just as Microsoft had subcontracted out the Edge work to Adobe. Adobe! Clench tight and keep your back to the wall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window...ce_Environment

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_(software)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainsoft

    https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/26

    https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/53

    Containers do not add the overhead of hardware faked with software or a fake OS to drive the fake hardware. Containers are a glorified chroot that also splits up /proc, /dev, etc. If you understand Unix permissions then Unix on Unix containers are totally superfluous.

    The IBM GNU/Linux-based virtualization uses the IOMMU to make real hardware available to AIX. AIX then drives the real hardware. The GNU/Linux based hypervisor is out of band. I.e. you can divvi real hardware for AIX and IBM i. IBM i has all of its IOSP VMs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiperSocket

    Solaris emulation works well on SPARC Linux (providing you steal the Solaris runtime). This is what I had on dual boot Solaris - Debian GNU/Linux box. This Unix on Unix case is pretty simple. Though superfluous it allowed me to run Solaris binaries in GNU/Linux without having to reboot. I actually had SRSS running under Debian GNU/Linux on SPARC.

    The Windows on Unix case has also been proven and I have used a number of products (WABI and Merge) over the years. I use WINE now for 3rd party Microsoft Windows apps. MS Office does not run and I don't care.

    Torvalds says that virtualization is evil. This is true if you already have Unix, but we have the practical problems of running legacy applications and binary only Unix software.

    I have run iBCS binaries locked to a single CPU thread on GNU/Linux too. We had old binary apps for SCO that I migrated to GNU/Linux.

    My laptop was a Chrome book so it was running just enough GNU/Linux to run Chrome. Now it's running Debian GNU/Linux and the hardware still works.

    Perhaps the solution if you can't see the sense of a machine running Microsoft is to get anything else as it will always be more useful.

    BTW the old 32bit G4 with AltiVec still whips x86 including SSE and AVX. I build SS3 for Celeron and AVX for i7. Apple jumping to Intel and worse still Effectively Fscked Itanic firmware makes no sense to me. As I said we are an IBM shop. I run rEFIt as I need BIOS to bash sense into my WinVidia for GNU/Linux on Mac. BOOTCAMP also does this for Microsoft Windows.

    Now it fair to say that Macs are expensive PeeCees, but they come with an OS that's usable. That matters less to me as I run free Debian GNU/Linux.

    PeeCee lusers basically have a few options:-

    Expensive: Skip the PeeCees and get Macs.

    Low cost: Get an app that runs on GNU/Linux or some flavour of BSD or Unix.

    Low fixed cost: Go over to Google cloud.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    I have a Windows 10 gaming rig, a Razer Blade Windows 10 laptop with an Ubuntu 16.04 position and an iMac 27" running Sierra. I'm OS agnostic. Here are my comments:

    Windows 10 snooping and advertisements need to stop.
    Windows 10 is a somewhat inelegant fusion of win 7 and win 8. It cannot decide if it wants to be a tablet or a computer
    Windows still cannot recognize outlook .eml files even though both Linux and macOS can...?
    W10 is great for gaming.

    macOS is my preferred work environment
    macOS has MS Office but also many free or cheap apps not available on Windows
    Apple hardware is stupid expensive
    Wish a laptop Hackintosh or VM Hackintosh were possible

    Linux would be my preferred os if it had MS Office. Libre Office isn't useable of your collaborating with MS Office
    T3-T7 complete since Sept 2015

  8. #8

    Speech versus More code

    Quote Originally Posted by t8burst View Post
    If a quad with limited hand control needs a computer, a windows box running dragon is the best solution.
    I am functionally a para and deal with blinkies who need text to speech, not speech to text. I have never used Dragon, but if I can ask for a demo I can find out on a GNU/Linux - WINE box with working sound and video. WINE plumbs into the GNU/Linux sound devices. QEMU can plumb into physical devices, but you need to stop GNU/Linux from initialising them. I have 32-bit Windows 7 as 64-bit Windows 7 lacks drivers for QEMU KVM.

    Dragon is AUD $200.00. I can ask about testing for WINE only. I am comfortable with my keyboards so I am not a user.

    If could not use a keyboard I would have to use Morse code. I am familiar with Unix ED(1).

    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManag...ation&iId=2077 Dragon

    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManag...sion&iId=28034 Dragon 12.5

    http://www.westest.com/index.php/201...2-07/darci-usb Morse code USB HID

    One Intel box I am stuck with 1024x768 (which is not a problem for me) and has working sound. On the Intel laptop can do any video mode, but no working sound (which does not bother me as I use large sans-serif monospace fonts). Ask Matthew Garrett why Intel is proof that there is no such thing as intelligent design. Also the coding standards used by the blind and stupid watchmaker for drosophila are a scream. I expect that Microsoft would be even worse. Infinite monkey development methodology? You don't need an RNG in Windows, you just read the NT kernel. (Sound on Intel laptop now works, but boots up at -infinity dB rather than 0 dB. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, ... Installed the right scripts to save and restore mixer.)

    I never had problems with GNU/Linux on UltraSPARC+ATI and POWER+ATI. Also had sound working on Sun UltraSPARC and Power Mac. Does Intel mean dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by t8burst View Post
    As for "virtualization is evil", you do realize that the "google cloud" you recommend is build entirely on virtualized containers that spin up and down based on load and need
    They use this to spin up and down according to demand and for maintenance. If one RAID drive dies on a blade they move the job to another and then change out the blade. Hosting sites do the same so they can move their customer's VM around.

    The IBM virtualization gives VMs access to real hardware so as to not waste the expensive POWER kit.

    AMD64 and Intel64 have an IOMMU and support is being ported to GNU/Linux for them. Then VM will make sense for 24h/d operations and those who what to move virtual servers around without loss of service.

    We only need to support office hours between Western Australia and New Zealand. Our desktop SOE is now Windows 7 and Apple Mac (OS X 10.4 and later integrate with NT 5+ domains). SunRay got more bloated and buggy and then got EoLed.

    So we only run a single Unix partition on the biggest POWER box.

    Most larger POWER set ups have virtualised storage like mainframes. We run a single AIX partition under a GNU/Linux based hypervisor on the main POWER box. This runs multiple companies and RDBMS sources and applications using Unix permissions, CPU and memory management. The old POWER boxes become play and test environments into which we throw our crash test dummies.
    Last edited by zagam; 01-26-2017 at 04:33 AM. Reason: Alternative input method

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