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Thread: Permobil 300

  1. #21
    Senior Member Stormycoon's Avatar
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    Thnxs ya'll,,,really helpful indeed..
    I am not your rolling wheels
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    I am not your carpet ride
    I am the sky
    I am not your blowing wind
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    I am not your autumn moon
    I am the night, the night..

  2. #22
    Senior Member Tim C.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crags View Post
    I thought the C 300 was discontinued. The new permobil F3 has the option of three aftermarket backs. My experience with my C 300, which is five years old has been nothing but physical pain in my shoulder and elbow.
    Fyi, my $0.02: i?m on my 2nd C300, the first was a breath of fresh air coming off an Invacare Pronto garbage in 2006. Unfort like everything else, Permobile changed business plan and suddenly good turns to shit. My 2014 model is an unthoughtful piece of engineering shit by comparison.
    Thank you J. Greg Blanchard, of Hudson Mobility for misleading me and then blowing me off, may you too someday suffer the likes of yourself.

  3. #23
    Stormycoon,
    You can still order a new Invacare TDX SP model. They haven't discontinued these PWC yet. With Invacare's "consent decree" there is pretty much 2 ways to obtain a NEW Invacare powerchair...

    1. Have an existing Invacare PWC (your DME provider would have to fill out a form provided by Invacare customer service)
    2. Have your DME provider complete Invacare's VMN form and explain why Invacare PWC or seating system is required for your medical needs and condition. It would also explain why another manufacturer would not be appropriate for you.

    Hope that explains the consent decree and how to still use Invacare as your PWC manufacturer. IMHO I personally prefer Permobil over Invacare. I am an Assistive Technology Professional working for a Complex Rehab Provider in California. I have been a Rehab Technician for 7 years with experience working for many different DME companies (Shoprider, Hoveround, The Scooter Store, Pride). In my time working as a repair tech, my personal view on Permobil is that the product is excellent from a "user" stand-point, however from a "repair tech" stand-point the Permobil PWCs are a pain in the a** when it comes to repairing the PWC. Most of Permobil's cables and wiring are hidden from view and tucked away, that makes the PWC more visually pleasing to the user and the public. Those hidden cables add more labor for the repair tech though. Depending on what electronics the PWC has, an Invacare TDX SP with the "SPJ joystick" would take a tech about 3-5min to replace that joystick. A Permobil M300 with R-Net electronics would take about 10-15min to replace that joystick.

    Another opinion of mine is that Invacare PWC's are very sturdy and built solid! If I have a client of mine that is in need of a new PWC and they're current PWC cannot withstand their daily use, I would prefer that client to get a new Invacare PWC rather than a Permobil PWC. In my years of experience, I see that the Invacare TDX SP is a very heavy-duty PWC. With that said, the new Permobil F3 & F5 PWC's are pretty amazing chairs! I like how the Permobil F5VS standing PWC operates.

    Hope all this helps in your decision in choosing your new PWC! Keep in mind...word going around our industry is that Invacare is working on an ALL NEW completely renovated TDX! I'm not sure as to when they plan on releasing more information about their future product, but I'm curious to see what Invacare has in store for the future of Complex Rehab.

    -Mark

  4. #24
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    Have any of you updated your knowledge base about Invacare and the Order of Consent. If "YOU" go to their site the current models can be viewed. The Order of Compliance does not simply disappear the compliance with the regulations that these Durable Medical Equipment companies operate under (while in my personal opinion is bull) the rules must be complied with, if you expect Medicare, Medicaid, or most Insurance companies to "PAY" for your piece of equipment.

    Most of the techs that service your chair are simply stupid and know very little about nor can they legally tinker up your chair beyond the limits they are authorized to do. Now this is not a 100% idiocy rate but dang close. There are some very simple solutions to some what appear to be complex problems.
    Owning your own controller programmer and learning to use it can resolve many problems with most chairs. However, the more vocal we are complaining about this stuff, may open some doors for us. Not fully charging your batteries or running them to dead is a no-no, you will only get about 50% of the total amp hours anyway before the voltage drops below the voltage operating range of the controller.

    I do not like mid-wheel drive powered wheelchairs they are already too long, they can bridge when going over uneven surfaces, and lift your drive wheels off the traction surface. I do use rear wheeled drives, larger output motors than usually spec-ed and lower amp controllers. My thing is a bit more consistent power and average speeds, and the opportunity to get onto the beach or into the woods. The key to many problems with our chairs lies with seat lifts, and such added equipment as well as distribution of sensors. If you don't need it, don't spec it!

    But Art you surprise me thinking that this President or any President would care if a piss-ant company like Invacare will even get his/her attention. As companies go Invacare is minuscule on his radar. There is far more to be lost than shutting the doors of a taxpaying company than can ever be gained.

    Shutting it down is more costly, but the regulators must do their authority demands and cannot be ignored. Invacare DID ignore many years of demands made by its regulators, the agency wanted written assurances that some very old demanded changes were made and documented years back. These demands in the specified form were ignored, that caused all the fuss.

    BTW, Fines also come with Orders of Consent, big ones. Very few of these sins of omission were currently life threatening, but if you went back you could see those were life threatening. Once you are on the "shit" list it is not easy to get off. Just ask the "Scooter Store" !

    This is just another circumstance, where damned if enforced, and damned if it is not enforced.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Stormycoon's Avatar
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    @MarkTheRehabSpecialist---Definitely if Invacare upgraded their Speed/Power specs that's my current prerogative over the Permobil 300..
    I'm a mid wheel drive user..
    My 1st TDX Storm obtained in 04' did wheelies & climbed over big River rocks.. My current 1 obtained in 2010 was substantially downgraded in Speed/Power & strictly pavement/ moderate outdoor..
    Yet I've grown into comfort zone in it..
    I'm definitely an up everyday day, outdoor/trail/beach/distance user..
    Permobil have said to be super beefed up in speed/climbing/distance ability, but if their not solid/stable, that's a conundrum...& that shoe size remote!! Darn.
    Wow yeah a future Invacare TDX at current make beefed with power/speed/distance/climbing for outdoor ideal!! Exciting indeed...
    IDK. It's been 6 years.. on website the models description says built for performance...Have they matched or improved the Permobil's new power speed upgrade or something??
    Last edited by Stormycoon; 07-04-2016 at 08:50 PM.
    I am not your rolling wheels
    I am the highway
    I am not your carpet ride
    I am the sky
    I am not your blowing wind
    I am the lightning
    I am not your autumn moon
    I am the night, the night..

  6. #26
    Senior Member Stormycoon's Avatar
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    @BobSulivan...sorry you didnt specify which chair your using.. A rear drive goes on sand beach?!
    Despite drive module theyre all way heavy to tread through sand...And only the new Permobils have the extra lift function...8 inches up on center piston..
    where can obtain programming device?? Ebay?
    Please advise, although I'm a mid wheels drive user..Ty
    Last edited by Stormycoon; 07-04-2016 at 09:18 PM.
    I am not your rolling wheels
    I am the highway
    I am not your carpet ride
    I am the sky
    I am not your blowing wind
    I am the lightning
    I am not your autumn moon
    I am the night, the night..

  7. #27
    But Art you surprise me thinking that this President or any President would care if a piss-ant company like Invacare will even get his/her attention................ I found this info after a long search on google. True or not there is Politics involved in everything weather we like it or not. Other than this I agree on your other things. Most techs don't no chit about how to fix things after you get it. All they care about is the sale.
    Art

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormycoon View Post
    Thnxs for feedback, yeah that joystick wayyyyy NO. Mine retracts to the side and a Must Have.

    Wow this is a shady contradiction. I'm finally getting out on my own & that was 1 primary goal was to get my van equipped. It's all ready w/ ramp n such, quick remove able seats..just needs these last few things.
    Definitely not vying for a Permobil now but , similar model im using Invacare TDX are built on a low riding base gonna be contradicted by EZ Lock system?? And that's the only sure to go automatic safe locking thing we got..
    Thresholds n such I'm always crossing..
    Stuck now.....shyyt..
    Permobil makes a driving lock that has a retractable pin under the chair. Don't know if it's great or if it sucks. Let us know if you try it.

  9. #29
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    ​Stormycoon,

    I have some of the older Invacare (cheaper models) Ranger II foldable models. When I am done they are no longer foldable. I use the biggest motors I can find that do not require motor mounting changes, then narrow up the underframe to a width that accommodates the wheels and tires I wish to use yet keeping the outside dimensions of an indoor chair if possible. The "X" bracing must be replaced with solid and welded tubing, to maintain width and lateral strength. Wheels for such use are also used for airplanes like Piper cubs, or Yard tractors, you still have to pretty much manufacture your own hubs. To accommodate the wide drive tires, with minimum aggressive thread styles will sort of float over most sand, the front tires need to be of a floating type, as well. Some of the key things are reducing any possible friction, and digging into the sand, floating over the sand is most desirable. That is why a midwheel drive is not as desirable, extra wheels to dig into the sand. It can bridge its weight bearing, and founder.

    NOW my tinkering speed, is like cold molasses going up hill due to my age and current physical abilities.

    Art; Everything political that occurs in government does not require the President's Imprimatur. Invacare has been under some direct orders to correct some problems with some pieces of their equipment for a number of years. Those things to my very slight knowledge were accomplished, but NOT Reported as complied with. If there is no formal report then the bureaucracy has no knowledge it happened. One item I knew about was a fused connection in the battery harness at the battery. This problem was corrected years ago (20+ maybe) but for whatever reason has not been documented, and of course many other small problems. Some person(s) determined to follow the "letter" of the law/rules, decided there were enough reasons to spank Invacare, charged and executed an Order of Contempt against the company at only one of the company's manufacturing facilities.

    The Company did comply with the Order and has now resumed operations with many of their former model chairs eliminated. The Chinese seem to have jumped in to fill this gap in models.

    So yes, all such enforcement attempts are "Political" the rules were made to protect consumers. However, almost every rule has some sort of unintended consequences. However, there is no President who actually writes these rules!! They are initiated by and authorized by Congress, then the law that is enabled is signed into law by a President, then written into rules by some "Rules Committee" or professional board. Then they are enforced by the appropriate Agency assigned this duty. Since the US Government is in the business of insurance (Medicare/Medicaid, VA) it is also the ultimate consumer, and enforce these laws just as You and I expect the rules to be enforced.

    They (Fed. Govt.) saw fit to shut down the "Scooter Store" (TSS) operations as well. One must assume at this point that, TSS erred in their sales technique. Pride produced a model strictly for TSS, but evidently this did not violate the rules. Pride wasn't prosecuted or production/supply stopped, Those Chinese made models evidently met the specs for (DME) Durable Medical Equipment. Evidently the (DOJ) Department of Justice, makes these decisions. That would be some lawyer sitting in a cubicle reading reports who tags this one or that one.

    The TSS shut down hurt many folks, that was unfortunate, and just an inevitable effect of an enforcement action. The action against Invacare was pretty much the same. BUT they Invacare is back in operation, and evidently have fulfilled the statutory requirements demanded of them.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Stormycoon's Avatar
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    Last edited by Stormycoon; 07-07-2016 at 09:32 PM.
    I am not your rolling wheels
    I am the highway
    I am not your carpet ride
    I am the sky
    I am not your blowing wind
    I am the lightning
    I am not your autumn moon
    I am the night, the night..

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