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Thread: The right to die--ethical dilemmas in persons with spinal cord injury. SCI Nurse?

  1. #51
    Senior Member Stormycoon's Avatar
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    Something strange but I've heard elsewhere from others. Knowing you have a sense of power or control over decidng to opt out grants a sense of freedom or even happiness. Granted it's a 'peaceful' means of exit like what they use for the short term terminally ill & not the other not so gloomy means of exit if your capable.
    Managing to aquire enough of my own "lethal combo' meds I'm prescribed, I had this sense of freedom if you will in spite of the looming prospect of grudging on without an overhand on my(our) disposition.

    So my pre-meditateD plan didn't pan out, survived a more than 2 human worth lethal overdose, dodged any brain damage thankfully but now that gloom feeling I'm battling. Coming to terms w/ having to shed some blood isnt the greatest thought/feeling.
    So being an Oregonian but exempt from our privileged lil euthanasia legislation makes more sense that they eyeball long term suffering into the mix.

    Now that I've experienced how they attack you instantly deem you mentally unstable, phsychopathic and want to cram an anti-depressant down you, counseling etc. WITHOUT an initial glimpse of the physical ramifications, how/what a sick hold they have on us..

    Yet in aa different sense looking through the millenia, we've come a long way..medically in both areas.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    The unwillingness to use a reliable technique on account of "the mess" confuses me. Wanting to be dead rather than alive doesn't confuse me. I get that, and I agree, that life sometimes isn't worth continuing. It seems to me the lengths which an individual is willing to go in order to die speaks directly to the depth of their living suffering. If their suffering is authentically so deep that death is preferable, what does a preoccupation with "peaceful", "easy", and/or "clean" options say about the depth of said suffering? "Peaceful" and "easy" seems like an incredibly low bar to set as a threshold for preferring death over living. I'm ALL FOR more people being dead than are alive today, but how low of a bar do we want to set, as a society? How little suffering do we want to enable with an establishment suicide process? How can we judge the depth of an individual's suffering if not by the length they're willing to go to end it?

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormycoon View Post
    Something strange but I've heard elsewhere from others. Knowing you have a sense of power or control over decidng to opt out grants a sense of freedom or even happiness. Granted it's a 'peaceful' means of exit like what they use for the short term terminally ill & not the other not so gloomy means of exit if your capable.
    Managing to aquire enough of my own "lethal combo' meds I'm prescribed, I had this sense of freedom if you will in spite of the looming prospect of grudging on without an overhand on my(our) disposition.

    So my pre-meditateD plan didn't pan out, survived a more than 2 human worth lethal overdose, dodged any brain damage thankfully but now that gloom feeling I'm battling. Coming to terms w/ having to shed some blood isnt the greatest thought/feeling.
    So being an Oregonian but exempt from our privileged lil euthanasia legislation makes more sense that they eyeball long term suffering into the mix.

    Now that I've experienced how they attack you instantly deem you mentally unstable, phsychopathic and want to cram an anti-depressant down you, counseling etc. WITHOUT an initial glimpse of the physical ramifications, how/what a sick hold they have on us..

    Yet in aa different sense looking through the millenia, we've come a long way..medically in both areas.
    In Oregon they won't provide assisted suicide to someone that is paralyzed from the neck down? Man you've been open with the fact that you attempted and failed, and that got you thrown in a psych ward apparently! Which I find ridiculous to be honest. But I must know what did they say to you, how did the doctors justify putting you in a psych ward when you have to live the way you do, with the very real limitations and daily procedures? Was it the same generic Life is still worth living, maybe a little reverse psychology thrown in "you're stronger than this fight the good fight" haha i'm sorry I can't even write that without emphasizing how hilariously stupid it is. They make A complete generalization of you make the assumption and say that there are still things for you to enjoy despite you're obviously very Real limitations, and much smaller options. Id really like to know
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 01-22-2016 at 12:46 PM.

  4. #54
    A person should have the right to die in a peaceful dignified manner. Not throwing up. Not shooting ourselves in the head. Not putting a bag over our head.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Stormycoon's Avatar
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    "Peaceful" and "easy" seems like an incredibly low bar to set as a threshold for preferring death over living.''
    Wow Not that we have much of a more grand variety these days but.. perhaps lives are different, some have family they factor in perhaps other concious matters guides them toward how u went.. gathering from this thread given our strong outlook of being included ethically into this instituted right, ' being able to bow out peacefully among family would be nice or preferred'..

    yes suffering as you say even to a bar standard is suffering but jeez dude we with SCI have more than your average of it. And it's *Long Term*!! Without citing all facets of pain accompanied w/SCI, primarily physical, we KNOW pain, so with fair comparison of who they are granting into 'Terms' of Right to die it's folks w/ cancer pain of a short duration of 6 months. We're also dying, albeit slowly lengthy painfully of a multitude of levels.
    Last edited by Stormycoon; 01-22-2016 at 06:10 AM.
    I am not your rolling wheels
    I am the highway
    I am not your carpet ride
    I am the sky
    I am not your blowing wind
    I am the lightning
    I am not your autumn moon
    I am the night, the night..

  6. #56
    Senior Member Stormycoon's Avatar
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    @James wasnt aware there is an authority/institution entity precisely for endeavors. But yeah they have the power to do so if your not adept fung-shwei.
    Last edited by Stormycoon; 01-22-2016 at 06:04 AM.
    I am not your rolling wheels
    I am the highway
    I am not your carpet ride
    I am the sky
    I am not your blowing wind
    I am the lightning
    I am not your autumn moon
    I am the night, the night..

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormycoon View Post
    @James wasnt aware there is an authority/institution entity precisely for endeavors. But yeah they have the power to do so if your not adept fung-shwei.
    OK I understand that about some able-bodied guy, popping pills after losing his job or something along the lines. You know temporary problems that can actually be worked upon! But I can't imagine how they justify bringing in someone paralyzed from the neck down the clearly doesn't want to live that way because of the injury and everything associated with the disability , especially in a state that approves assisted suicide.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormycoon View Post
    "Peaceful" and "easy" seems like an incredibly low bar to set as a threshold for preferring death over living.''
    Wow Not that we have much of a more grand variety these days but.. perhaps lives are different, some have family they factor in perhaps other concious matters guides them toward how u went.. gathering from this thread given our strong outlook of being included ethically into this instituted right, ' being able to bow out peacefully among family would be nice or preferred'..

    yes suffering as you say even to a bar standard is suffering but jeez dude we with SCI have more than your average of it. And it's *Long Term*!! Without citing all facets of pain accompanied w/SCI, primarily physical, we KNOW pain, so with fair comparison of who they are granting into 'Terms' of Right to die it's folks w/ cancer pain of a short duration of 6 months. We're also dying, albeit slowly lengthy painfully of a multitude of levels.

    I completely agree. I firmly believe we ALL have a natural right to live or die under whatever conditions we (as individuals) choose to manifest for ourselves, barring choices that create obstacles for others to do the same. It follows from that, I have reservations about a government institutionally enabling death as easily as can be made possible, codifying it under law, and forcing others to assist. If you desire a painless existance or exit, and that also happens to be what you consider dignified, so be it. I'd never stand in your way. I do question how much suffering exists if an easy death is the only willing option, but that's just a question between my ears, not a judgment. It is entirely up to you.

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  9. #59
    Senior Member Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dlevy View Post
    A person should have the right to die in a peaceful dignified manner. Not throwing up. Not shooting ourselves in the head. Not putting a bag over our head.
    A person DOES have the right to die by however he can effect a suicide. A natural right. It cannot be stopped. Life is far too fragile to be maintained simply by a law. Suicide is as inalienable a right as is possible to exist.

    What is dignified is a matter of opinion, and heavily biased by culture. Some folks consider suffering more dignified than taking an easy way out. It takes all kinds. What you don't have a right to do is to force anyone else to help you. I don't believe the government should punish anyone that helps by choice, however, that opens the field to a lot of complicated questions. If there were no restrictions, should it be socially acceptable to sell one's life to a death sport? Or a psychopath? If a person about to die from cancer had full legal authority over their life, would it be fine for them to sell their life, for the benefit of their survivors, to, say, a Jeffery Dahmer type?

    I don't think so. So, some bar must exist. Being terminal isn't particularly good because we are all terminal. "I'm going to die in 6 months" can be as true for a cancer patient as "I'm going to die in 60 years" for a 50 year old. Suffering isn't a particularly good bar because it is subjective. Creating institutionalized "easy" ways out isn't particularly good either. The easier the way out the lower the bar for making the decision.

    I think the best balance is near to where we are in the US, today. Criminalize assistance, don't legally enable institutionalized "easy" exits, but I'd also like to see no criminalization (or stigmatization) for trying. This leaves the individual in charge, empowered, and their natural rights intact, without using the force of law to enable anyone (or to force anyone to help.)

    Another question: if a legal right to die existed, would it be an illegal infringement of said right for a doctor to deny you help? If it were legal, yet no one ever wanted to help, how would you feel? Would you think others "owed you" a death because it was your "right", even if they didn't want to help?
    Last edited by Oddity; 01-22-2016 at 02:38 PM.
    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

    "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

    "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

  10. #60
    Dying isn't easy no matter what, even with the "best" of methods!! None of us know what happens. Choicing death when you want to live, gut wrenching! In Many "serious" situations the perception of Suffering is universal. The extent to that suffering is subjective, often based on individual values and beliefs.

    If the government doesn't enable "easy" exit what are higher spinal cord injuries to do, or someone like Stephen Hawking's there's many more similar circumstances? The answer is starve to death, which could easily be refused and prevented that's kind of a different topic tho. You mentioned that what is dignified is a matter of opinion, well I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think starving to death is a dignified way to die, AND if they were that "opinion" would change damn quick if they witnessed the ENTIRE process. As I said we wouldn't even leave that fate to a wild animal. Btw in my eyes animals deserve more respect than humans again another topic just saying haha.

    Also if there are no "easy exits" we leave the terminally ill to continue to die slow and prolonged deaths,not to mention randomly when the body finally decides to shut down. I think it's much better that they make the call and if they wish they could be in the company with those they care about. That way it doesn't randomly happen when they are alone, or on another note having those close to them waiting around in the hospital constantly because they know it's coming at some point, exposing them to see some ugly things, stuck in their own suffering of waiting in those awful places with uncertainty.


    To your last question it would continue the same, just because assisted suicide is legal doesn't mean all of a sudden doctors can refuse to help someone because they assume they're better off dead. However now that it is legal and I get in a a serious accident then look up at them and say "no leave me to die I'm not going to be a cripple"! clear as day mustering all the strength I can to get it out of my mouth, with full real obvious conviction! then they step the fuck back and oblige that request, leave the man be !!. They don't just assume oh well he hasn't tried the chair yet, oh maybe he won't mind, he can't make a rational decision yet,he's almost certainly completely paralyzed but there's still things out there will just assume that those matter to him, i'm sure he won't mind being "cared for" as long as he's alive hehe etc . That's generalization, that's a bunch of bullshit!! 90% of The time (probably more) if someone is conscious after a Horrific accident leading to serious injury all they're going to say: I am here, help me ( often repeatedly ), am I going to die, oh no what's happening, I'm scared, I think I'm paralyzed, I can't move, I can't feel my legs, help them first, what did I do , don't leave me, are my leg still there, get me to the hospital etc you strap those kind of people up, and get them to the hospital as quickly as you can to do the best you can. And of course in the event that someone is unconscious and there is no DNR obviously you perform the " logical or accepted" procedure. Simple...
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 01-22-2016 at 06:48 PM.

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