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Thread: Doctors in China carry out world first spine surgery

  1. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Man View Post
    There is a lack of a cellular bridge for axons to travel.

    Most importantly, is that adult neurons don't regenerate their axons. It is genetic. You can get rid of any scar obstruction, provide a beautiful bridge to cross, but the axons would still not move. You may find proof of .0001% that may move a few mm's but the overwhelming majority intrinsically do not move. This is why genetic therapy is really the only way to get host axons to regenerate, imo.

    Even if you could get them to miraculously regenerate, they wouldn't know where to go. SCI is like a brain injury, only with the cord (same tissue as brain).
    Peripheral nerves can (they don't always, but often can) regenerate quite nicely, given certain circumstances, and their neuronal cell bodies are in the spinal cord. There are many different kinds of neurons but at least some of them can grow their axons after injury, following a "bridge", as you propose, of schwann cells.

  2. #252
    Tom, you are right, it is open for debate, but when several scientist's studies (Kai Liu, Paul Lu, & others) have documented rivers of axons growing through animal injury sites, it is completely inaccurate to state that glial scars prevent regeneration. I'm confused why researchers are talking about cutting out the 'scar' when there is concrete evidence it is not necessary.

  3. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Man View Post
    There is a lack of a cellular bridge for axons to travel.

    Most importantly, is that adult neurons don't regenerate their axons. It is genetic. You can get rid of any scar obstruction, provide a beautiful bridge to cross, but the axons would still not move. You may find proof of .0001% that may move a few mm's but the overwhelming majority intrinsically do not move. This is why genetic therapy is really the only way to get host axons to regenerate, imo.

    Even if you could get them to miraculously regenerate, they wouldn't know where to go. SCI is like a brain injury, only with the cord (same tissue as brain).
    Seem Dr. Silvers peptide was able to get the axons to move in rat models. I believe that yes axons don't know where to go, but I believe with very intensive constant functional rehab , That the body can be rewired sort to speak. Dr. Young and a lot of the researchers in China have stated this is vital after any treatment that is why!

  4. #254
    Don't See how gene therapy will help a chronic spinal cord injury I can understand it could benefit an acute spinal cord injury but not chronic after the damage has already been done and sat for a long time!

  5. #255
    Clearly the doctors in this trial, and the clinical trial in Russia believe that the scar is an obstacle for regeneration!

  6. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    Peripheral nerves can (they don't always, but often can) regenerate quite nicely, given certain circumstances, and their neuronal cell bodies are in the spinal cord. There are many different kinds of neurons but at least some of them can grow their axons after injury, following a "bridge", as you propose, of schwann cells.

    Peripheral nerves are irrelevant. They are not the central nervous system (brain & spinal cord). Intrinsically, the brain & spinal cord do not regenerate. Any regrowth of spinal cord axons after treatment are extremely low percentage and very short distance. Oh, except umbilical cord blood cells + lithium! They regenerated from cervical down to cpg (very very far distance)...as believed by Dr. Young.

  7. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    Seem Dr. Silvers peptide was able to get the axons to move in rat models. I believe that yes axons don't know where to go, but I believe with very intensive constant functional rehab , That the body can be rewired sort to speak. Dr. Young and a lot of the researchers in China have stated this is vital after any treatment that is why!
    How many axons (all, a lot, a tiny fraction?) and how far? Images?

  8. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Tom, you are right, it is open for debate, but when several scientist's studies (Kai Liu, Paul Lu, & others) have documented rivers of axons growing through animal injury sites, it is completely inaccurate to state that glial scars prevent regeneration. I'm confused why researchers are talking about cutting out the 'scar' when there is concrete evidence it is not necessary.
    Jim, I don't necessarily disagree with those sentiments. However, you and Wise often say the scar is not a barrier to regeneration, yet I still haven't seen an alternative theory proposed. What is it that you/Wise think IS the barrier to regeneration after spinal cord injury?

  9. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    Peripheral nerves can (they don't always, but often can) regenerate quite nicely, given certain circumstances, and their neuronal cell bodies are in the spinal cord. There are many different kinds of neurons but at least some of them can grow their axons after injury, following a "bridge", as you propose, of schwann cells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Man View Post
    Peripheral nerves are irrelevant. They are not the central nervous system (brain & spinal cord). Intrinsically, the brain & spinal cord do not regenerate. Any regrowth of spinal cord axons after treatment are extremely low percentage and very short distance. Oh, except umbilical cord blood cells + lithium! They regenerated from cervical down to cpg (very very far distance)...as believed by Dr. Young.
    I'll re-state the bolded text in my first post...the neuronal cell bodies of peripheral axons are in the spinal cord - they ARE in the central nervous system.

    You said "adult neurons don't regenerate their axons". This is not always true. There are no neuronal cell bodies in the peripheral nervous system - only neuronal cell bodies in the CNS that have axons that branch out into the peripheral nervous system.
    To say that the "brain and spinal cord" don't regenerate is oversimplifying it, since there are a multitude of different type of tissues, and an injury to the PNS creates a very different cellular environment than an injury to different parts of the CNS.
    I don't think the lack of axonal regeneration after SCI can solely be explained by a lack of intrinsic growth capacity, since some axons (whose roots are in the spinal cord) clearly can regenerate.

  10. #260
    Just because a peripheral motor neuron starts in the CNS does not make it equivalent to a motor neuron that starts in the brain! Peripheral nerves are different than brain / spinal cord nerves. Even different neurons solely inside the central nervous system have different genetic makeup. That's why only certain axon tracts regenerate with PTEN, while others don't.

    I didn't say it was the sole reason. However, it is imo, a significant reason, and one that must be overcome.

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