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Thread: Doctors in China carry out world first spine surgery

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrington314mx View Post
    says who?
    one paitent of the Chinese
    trial.

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAMMY View Post
    I've never reviewed and categorized the liquid medium in which the cells were injected for implantation in all of those trials. After seeing the data results in the trials along with in-vivo and in-vitro data, I didn't see much need and wasn't particularly interested in wasting time exploring that. You should be digging and learning these things for yourself or guaranteed you'll keep seeing this same exact trial in the coming decades and left wondering why a curative therapy never came but you heard all kinds of spectacular science fiction stories on bone marrow stem cell trials. I don't think the fibrous scaffold bridge shown in the video has suddenly made them miracle cells of sorts for the CNS.


    I wouldn't call the information irrelevant in this case. There's a claim here that it's also solved some uterus infertility issues in addition to the unprecedented long distance regeneration that has supposedly occurred this past month (or not) depending on whatever makes people feel good. I would suggest a bit of looking around at the axonal growth rate capability of mesenchymal stem cells. It's not hard to locate. Why didn't Wise's trial with UCB and Lithium show this kind of miraculous unprecedented spontaneous long distance axonal regeneration?



    If it's not on a injured spinal cord it is irrelevant, fertility has nothing to do with our situation (if anything it supports the case for a lot of potential). I can't answer that question iam not educated in neurology or as experienced as you. But you seem to Soley focus on the stem cells, The main focus of this trial is the collagen scaffolding lined with their growth factors. After all apparently that alone showed good progress in dogs. I see no point in bashing this trial before official results even released, that's just ridiculous plain and simple. Also the simple fact is this has never been done on a injured cord in humans , So nobody knows what the results will be.

  3. #153
    I know you're not interested in the stem cells but it's beneficial for the community to have a healthy respect for stem cells that are being put into the cord in addition to knowing some of the history they've created for themselves. They are not innocuous. Of course nobody knows what the results will be yet, but I do know a little bit about the past. Again, this is not just a scaffold trial. The stem cells are slathered onto the fibers and are supposed to grow and multiply on it and the cells are indeed being put into the spinal cord of people. It's being trialed here as full treatment, not scaffold alone. I rather doubt I see health regulators here ever give this a nod in my lifetime....

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20660620

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23157845

    Adverse effects of cells included spasticity and, in 24 out of the 43 patients developed neuropathic pain. One subject experienced -8 points lost motor function, 24 developed neuropathic pain and one developed myletis complications on the third injection. One subject with a history of post-infectious myelitis developed encephalomyelitis after her third injection. Please note that the earlier 2010 trial by from Kishk, et al. [11], from the same institution, had concluded that intrathecally administered autologous MSC’s do not have beneficial effects in 43 subjects, may have side effects in chronic spinal cord injury, and may be contraindicated in patients with myelitis. Autologus MSCs may have side effects. Their utility in treating chronic traumatic SCI needs further study in pre-clinical models and in randomized controlled trials before they should be offered to patients. There's generally a new study on bone marrow stem cells about every two years.
    Last edited by GRAMMY; 02-24-2015 at 05:39 PM.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAMMY View Post
    I know you're not interested in the stem cells but it's beneficial to have a healthy respect for the stem cells that are being put into the cord in addition to knowing some of their history. They are not innocuous. Of course nobody knows what the results will be yet, but I do know a little bit about the past. Again, this is not a scaffold trial. The stem cells are slathered onto the fibers and are supposed to grow and multiply on it. It's being trialed here as full treatment. I rather doubt I see health regulators here ever give this a nod in my lifetime....

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20660620

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23157845

    Adverse effects of cells included spasticity and, in 24 out of the 43 patients developed neuropathic pain. One subject experienced -8 points lost motor function, 24 developed neuropathic pain and one developed myletis complications on the third injection. One subject with a history of post-infectious myelitis developed encephalomyelitis after her third injection. Please note that the earlier 2010 trial by from Kishk, et al. [11], from the same institution, had concluded that intrathecally administered autologous MSC’s do not have beneficial effects in 43 subjects, may have side effects in chronic spinal cord injury, and may be contraindicated in patients with myelitis. Autologus MSCs may have side effects. Their utility in treating chronic traumatic SCI needs further study in pre-clinical models and in randomized controlled trials before they should be offered to patients. There's generally a new study on bone marrow stem cells about every two years.
    Although everything you said maybe true,however,you have to admit that this procedure is the first time all over the world.
    Work or not,I don't know,we will find out in less than "3years",which I think it will never happen as fast as in western country.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by y8225009 View Post
    Although everything you said maybe true,however,you have to admit that this procedure is the first time all over the world.
    Work or not,I don't know,we will find out in less than "3years",which I think it will never happen as fast as in western country.
    I very much agree with you here.
    In western countries we have the problem of "medicine's missing measure" and our leaders (including some patient's advocates) seem to push their head deeper into the sand when the problem is discussed rather than doing something about it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXHqG2sf8S4

    Paolo
    Last edited by paolocipolla; 02-24-2015 at 04:27 PM.
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAMMY View Post
    I know you're not interested in the stem cells but it's beneficial for the community to have a healthy respect for stem cells that are being put into the cord in addition to knowing some of the history they've created for themselves. They are not innocuous. Of course nobody knows what the results will be yet, but I do know a little bit about the past. Again, this is not just a scaffold trial. The stem cells are slathered onto the fibers and are supposed to grow and multiply on it and the cells are indeed being put into the spinal cord of people. It's being trialed here as full treatment, not scaffold alone. I rather doubt I see health regulators here ever give this a nod in my lifetime....

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20660620

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23157845

    Adverse effects of cells included spasticity and, in 24 out of the 43 patients developed neuropathic pain. One subject experienced -8 points lost motor function, 24 developed neuropathic pain and one developed myletis complications on the third injection. One subject with a history of post-infectious myelitis developed encephalomyelitis after her third injection. Please note that the earlier 2010 trial by from Kishk, et al. [11], from the same institution, had concluded that intrathecally administered autologous MSC’s do not have beneficial effects in 43 subjects, may have side effects in chronic spinal cord injury, and may be contraindicated in patients with myelitis. Autologus MSCs may have side effects. Their utility in treating chronic traumatic SCI needs further study in pre-clinical models and in randomized controlled trials before they should be offered to patients. There's generally a new study on bone marrow stem cells about every two years.
    Well Apparently MSC stem cells seem to do more harm than good. I certainly hope the collagen scaffolding helps with these issues and makes it more effective, for us but especially for the patients. Clearly desperate to jump into a phase 1 trial, God help us haha.

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    Well Apparently MSC stem cells seem to do more harm than good. I certainly hope the collagen scaffolding helps with these issues and makes it more effective, for us but especially for the patients. Clearly desperate to jump into a phase 1 trial, God help us haha.
    That's only partially true perhaps. There have been Phase 1 trials done that suggest safety and a bit of improvement. However, there obviously wasn't enough or the treatment would have come to fruition and been commercialized long ago by making it through Ph. 3 and 4 trials. Not all treatments or devices should make it there and this one has not for various reasons. The BMSC trial run on 70 chronic SCI from Egypt a couple years ago didn't fair too well where an American Co hoped to get FDA approval on a delivery device to direct drive the patient cells from the hip directly up to the spinal cord without additional lab manipulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    I very much agree with you here.
    In western countries we have the problem of "medicine's missing measure" and our leaders (including some patient's advocates) seem to push their head deeper into the sand when the problem is discussed rather than doing something about it. Paolo
    As one can read for themselves, clearly it is important to know the "rest of the story" before making outlandish demands of the FDA or chastising other "patient advocates" at the tail end of each cure thread discussion. I'm not sure just who you believe has their head in the sand, but it's obvious this wasn't going to turn out well for the community no matter how many times it's put on your "to read later list in Italy". If you wanted me to beg for BMSC at the FDA, you're sadly mistaken. It did not happen and probably won't. I believe there's much better options coming in the future. I'm saddened that we do not have them yet.

    New Hope for Reversing the Effects of Paralysis on Spinal Cord Injury: Phase 1 & 2 Results. 3/12/2013

  8. #158
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    when they start phase two trial and which stem cells they will use? Are they taking chronic lower lumbar injury patients too in next phase?

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAMMY View Post
    That's only partially true perhaps. There have been Phase 1 trials done that suggest safety and a bit of improvement. I believe there's much better options coming in the future. I'm saddened that we do not have them yet.

    New Hope for Reversing the Effects of Paralysis on Spinal Cord Injury: Phase 1 & 2 Results. 3/12/2013
    Hopefully there will be something that makes it past Phase I, then II and then III. I think most here have bias on which trials that have passed through here might work. Our FDA is tedious but having watched some "out of country" results and the complications I have some appreciation for their intent. As much as they get attacked I always wonder why the money doesn't flow to other countries for faster development.

    One day...................

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAMMY View Post
    ...
    As one can read for themselves, clearly it is important to know the "rest of the story" before making outlandish demands of the FDA or chastising other "patient advocates" at the tail end of each cure thread discussion. I'm not sure just who you believe has their head in the sand, but it's obvious this wasn't going to turn out well for the community no matter how many times it's put on your "to read later list in Italy". If you wanted me to beg for BMSC at the FDA, you're sadly mistaken. It did not happen and probably won't. I believe there's much better options coming in the future. I'm saddened that we do not have them yet.

    New Hope for Reversing the Effects of Paralysis on Spinal Cord Injury: Phase 1 & 2 Results. 3/12/2013
    You totally misunderstood my post.

    Never mind.

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

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