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Thread: ZX1 lithium ion battery retrofit

  1. #81
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    NoNoise,

    You obviously have the where with all or space to keep multiple personal conveyences. For most of us this is not practical or feasable, let alone, we simply can't afford them. I buy junk chairs that are mostly there, so I can exchange parts, or make them usable again. Unfortunately singular used parts, from chair breakers, are becoming very expensive and thus as far as I am concerned will stay where they are. I'm not going to buy them.

    If I had a pocket full of cash, I would likely buy a Seated Segway that looks like it would fill the bill for most of my desires, but even then those segway's a bit too wide for inside my house so I would still require an in house chair. But I don't have the cash so I will go without, simple as that.

    I also meant that most electronic parts or pieces have a nominal voltage range +/- ? %. Controllers are one of those things, when you over volt many of them you get smoke. Smoke is bad. Undervoltage may get you smoke as well, but mostly just failure.


    And Yes NoNoise, really all those questions were for Maddog, but I am more than happy you chose to answer.
    Last edited by Bob Sullivan; 11-09-2014 at 12:19 PM. Reason: clarity

  2. #82
    Senior Member maddog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sullivan View Post
    I kind of look at rolling to the tide water line at the beach. How well does it go over the soft sand between the car parking area and across the soft sand before it get hardened by the ebb of the tide?

    Or traveling in the woods between the trees or along the logging roads and trails. Of course this description is far more difficult to verbalize in less than a page full of words. It is far easier for you to describe where you go with it.

    What diameter and width are your tires and wheels ?

    That is a nice looking power box, clean and neat.
    Bob, it does ok in sand but not great. It was the power to go but I run 24" - 1 3/8" knobby tires and they are just to narrow for the sand. In deep soft sand it sinks to the pushrims and then goes, short straight stretch of sand is fine but not all day at the beach. Being a quad without hand grip makes pushing with sand covered handrims difficult. Hard packed wet sand is fine.

    I can go anywhere any manual wheelchair user can go and I can do it with little effort. I can go through a good bit if I have to but its not a purpose built off road machine. If you are looking for something to take you offroad and in beach sand there are a lot better choices. Offroad chairs are usually not good everyday chairs and this is a good compromise for me.

    I have some old wheels and frames that I am thinking about modifying into more of an offroad chair with wider tires and casters using the same motors.

    Here is a video of the chair in use in a lite offroad setting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zKRhJVPwJM I have 6" front casters so I can go through that fairly easily.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sullivan View Post
    NoNoise,You obviously have the where with all or space to keep multiple personal conveyences. ...clip...If I had a pocket full of cash, I would likely buy a Seated Segway...clip...

    Bob, I have some space, but on the other hand, I have not been able to park my van in the garage in a long long time. BTW, that beach chair in my avator belongs to the state of California parks department. They loan them out on a first come first serve basis. There might be something similar on the east coast.

    And yes a Segway is intreguing. A used one seems like too much fussing around and the Genny is too expensive for the amount of use I'd give it. I don't remember seeing them taking them to the beach the way you want to do. There is a rental tour group here that runs along the waterfront. You could call it a boardwalk, but it is concrete and asphalt, goes for miles. Anyway I am sure they stay off the beach, think sand, salt.
    I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by maddog View Post
    ...clip...Here is a video of the chair in use in a lite offroad setting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zKRhJVPwJM I have 6" front casters so I can go through that fairly easily.
    Does it provide power in reverse? Does it really work as effortlessly as is shown in that video? I mean when he pulls up to the table, it looks like he is only using human power. And I do not detect any effort at stopping either. Having this type power delivered to the real wheelchair real wheels has got to be the best method. So is the video true or too good to be true? I already tried to find an old one for sale on the west coast.
    I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

  5. #85
    Senior Member maddog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonoise View Post
    Does it provide power in reverse? Does it really work as effortlessly as is shown in that video? I mean when he pulls up to the table, it looks like he is only using human power. And I do not detect any effort at stopping either. Having this type power delivered to the real wheelchair real wheels has got to be the best method. So is the video true or too good to be true? I already tried to find an old one for sale on the west coast.
    Yes, power forward and reverse. It is designed to make everything feel like you are pushing on a hardwood floor at all times. It has a very natural feel as far as power delivery goes. It absolutely works great but while the chair feels weightless with the power on, it is hard to load in a car and the battery is not big enough for my needs.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by takenaback View Post
    So the history is first bought one of these or two of these I should say roughly one year ago and they are lead acid drop in replacements lithium ion batteries.

    This was information I received from Spinergy for your interest.

    Overview
    Over the past several months we have tested a number of different Lithium Batteries from different suppliers. Based upon the current packaging space for the Lead Batteries on the ZX-1, we have decided to pursue a ?Drop In? Replacement Battery that is the same size as the current Lead Gel Mat Battery. This will make the transition much easier for our Dealers. The New components consist of three cables including a BMS that plugs into the back of the VR2 Controller. (See Attached Photo). There is a New software program that is downloaded to the VR2 controller that adjusts the Battery Charge Indicator Lights for the Lithium Batteries. This way the user will get a gradual reduction in the charge indicator lights as the unit is discharged. This software mod can be downloaded to a unit at our Factory, or in the field using one of the PG Drives Hand Held controllers. The Drop In replacement Batteries must be a 12V 15Amp Hour Battery with an Internal BMS that cuts off Voltage at or Below 10.4 Volts.

    The following two Batteries have been tested so far and are deemed usable with our device:

    Fusion Batteries 12V 15 Ah
    Powerizer 12V 15 Ah

    The range will in essence double the range that your customers are getting from the Lead Gel Mat batteries with a warranty on the batteries that extends from 6 months to two years!

    Battery Management System (BMS)
    Our new BMS is a customized PC Board that is enclosed in a plastic housing and runs in between the batteries and the VR2 Controller. This BMS will prevent from Overcharging the batteries and act as a cell balancing device. In addition to cell balancing, the BMs will cutoff the voltage at 10.4 volts and issue a Warning when the batteries get to 11 Volts. When the Warning is initiated, the BMS will send a signal to the controller for the ZX-1 to go into crawl mode. This is the first notification to the user that their batteries are getting low. At the same time, the BMS will signal an audible beeping sound with 5 beeps! These beeps will stop and start again in two minutes if the user continues to deplete the Batteries. After this two minute period, the BMS will signal with another 5 beeps. If the user continues to deplete the batteries further, the BMS will issue it?s last 5 beep warning and the system will shut down. It is important for the user to start charging the batteries once the ZX-1 first goes into crawl mode. To relate this scenario to distance, once the ZX-1 goes into crawl mode the user can drive the ZX-1 for about 1km or .6 miles before completely shutting down.
    I'm a fellow Aussie, looking at getting a ZX-1. Tested one Wednesday and on charged Pb cells got 100m down the road before batteries were running out. Will be ordering LiFePO4 equipped unit but the suppliers down here got less info on the batteries than you provided here, so thank you. I'll keep reading this thread for more info.

  7. #87
    Nonoise, you may be interested in my prototype power chair using 350Watt gearless brushless hub motors. We developed our own controller, from scratch, to give closed loop control (each motor reports its speed to controller, for easy driving). We have to limit the speed from the 16"hub wheels from a possible 25kmph, down to 16kph, for safety - those motors are powerful and can be really fast. I had various sets tested for power and current draw in the back wheel of a recumbent trike. One motor could drive that at 25kph (measured by GPS). Tires were 2.75" wide with aggressive tread too.

    We ran off a 36V LiCo battery at 16Ah capacity with BMS cut-out only activating at low battery. We could get enough power from mid-mounted wheels under my 90kg, to spin both wheels on smooth concrete floor when footplate jammed against a bench. See this at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gxMRMC0DfQ

    Driving around can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIAEOW-8EPY Note: the ramp into doorway way 1:8 gradient. Only problem we had was creating no power locking brakes. With power on, by shorting the three poles, the wheels locked very strongly.

    Motors were made with single axles with keyways for me and 52 poles (magnets mounted inside hub rims) to get smoothest response. 36 pole motors were too notchy and noisy, for my liking. 500Watt motors were very poor and notchy. These motors, not videoed, were much more powerful and smoother, but heavier. Wheels were 6kg each.

    Also controller has a channel for linear actuator, and 12V output for accessories, to drive seat forward and back on rear frame, making it a longer wheelbase for outside cruising, short for inside almost front wheel drive turning. Not a simple task and cost over $30K to create one controller.

    I'm a complete C5-C6 quad from 1977, so vested interest in getting these working. In retrospect, should have used conventional brushed, geared W/C motors, but I had my sights further forward. Note similarity to ZX-1 in using sports chair frame and axle pivot (prototype 3 had cross tube as pivot) see www.coolmobility.com.au, Patent granted prior to ZX-1 in USA, Australia and China! And now I'm going to buy a ZX-1 - irony.

  8. #88
    Also, your throttles are called Hall effect and can be used on all your controllers. A 5V supply is adjusted by the proximity of the magnet to be between about 0.5V and 4.5V and replace old potentiometer technology. Most modern joysticks also use 2 x Hall effect regulators - one for each axis.

    Any motor with only two wires is DC brushed and can be driven just by PWM voltage for speed control or even direct from battery. Any three wire motors are AC BLDC (Brushless Direct Current) where a controller is needed between a motor and battery to create a three-phase AC current to motors, with feedback from Hall effect circuits in motor that feedback direction and speed of motor from the magnets passing the sensor. These controllers are made for specific voltage ranges - ie around 24V, 36V, 48V, or higher like 72V or 96V.

    The motor in my 25 foot yacht is a Golden Motor 5KW BLDC motor with 48V 300Amp controller, using an inboard 3:1 reduction gearbox. Works well, better that a stinky diesel motor. I enjoy inventing...

  9. #89
    just get an alternator...
    C5/C6 Complete since 08/22/09

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