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Thread: Drug Testing, a Barrier to Employment....?

  1. #11
    It never ceases to amaze me how quickly Americans are willing to forfeit their constitutional rights to a despotic government bureaucracy because of fear tactics. Now we have the NSA collecting information on every citizen through the use of fear tactics. It is hypocritical that lawyers and politicians who construct such Soviet-style tactics conveniently exempt themselves from the same scrutiny. It can be argued that such lawyers and politicians under the influence of drugs and EtOH have the potential to inflict far greater damage on a far greater scale than those they seek to control. Healthcare workers should not be subject to mandatory random drug testing without probable cause. In addition to being a violation of the fourth amendment, such random testing has an extremely low yield. Should a highly skilled surgeon with an excellent surgical record who has never treated patients while under the influence lose his/her license if he/she tests positive because he/she happened to smoke a joint during vacation? Maybe we should test all Americans all the time from cradle to grave. There are far more impaired drivers on the road who kill far more people. Maybe we can hire an army of government enforcers to randomly stop 1 out of every 100 drivers and demand a roadside urine test. Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave.

  2. #12
    My doctor for 7 years (he was my doctor before my accident) got busted for taking the oxycodone from a nursing home patient and replacing it with tylenol. He got caught on camera doing it and everything (because he had been doing it for a while). I was trying to support my small town drug store but my pharmacist is either a moron or high as a kite, making numerous mistakes with my prescriptions so I now use walgreens (who probably do drug test their pharmacists) . So yeah, if you have access to drugs on a regular basis and you being impaired could harm people you should be tested. I write software for a living, none of which if it has a bug is life threatening so I shouldn't. It is not a violation of the fourth amendment, it is not illegal for a doctor to refuse a drug test he can choose not to and lose his job. He wants to smoke dope he can choose a different profession.

    The "despotic government" stuff is crap. I think Obama is a tool (who is trampling over the constitution on daily basis by exceeding the executive branch's power) but the US is still better governed than most countries and for a country as large and diverse as it is I don't see any country doing any better.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaidMyDues View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me how quickly Americans are willing to forfeit their constitutional rights to a despotic government bureaucracy because of fear tactics. Now we have the NSA collecting information on every citizen through the use of fear tactics. It is hypocritical that lawyers and politicians who construct such Soviet-style tactics conveniently exempt themselves from the same scrutiny. It can be argued that such lawyers and politicians under the influence of drugs and EtOH have the potential to inflict far greater damage on a far greater scale than those they seek to control. Healthcare workers should not be subject to mandatory random drug testing without probable cause. In addition to being a violation of the fourth amendment, such random testing has an extremely low yield. Should a highly skilled surgeon with an excellent surgical record who has never treated patients while under the influence lose his/her license if he/she tests positive because he/she happened to smoke a joint during vacation? Maybe we should test all Americans all the time from cradle to grave. There are far more impaired drivers on the road who kill far more people. Maybe we can hire an army of government enforcers to randomly stop 1 out of every 100 drivers and demand a roadside urine test. Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave.

  3. #13
    Anecdotal reports are statistically irrelevant. You did not answer my question: Should a highly skilled surgeon with an excellent surgical record who has never treated patients while under the influence lose his/her license if he/she tests positive because he/she happened to smoke a joint during vacation? You also conveniently ignored my point that impaired drivers kill far more people. If you kill someone on the way to your software writing job because you are impaired then that is indeed life threatening. By extension of your logic, all drivers should be pulled over and tested at random for a urine drug test. You could refuse and lose your license. Sound fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by t8burst View Post
    My doctor for 7 years (he was my doctor before my accident) got busted for taking the oxycodone from a nursing home patient and replacing it with tylenol. He got caught on camera doing it and everything (because he had been doing it for a while). I was trying to support my small town drug store but my pharmacist is either a moron or high as a kite, making numerous mistakes with my prescriptions so I now use walgreens (who probably do drug test their pharmacists) . So yeah, if you have access to drugs on a regular basis and you being impaired could harm people you should be tested. I write software for a living, none of which if it has a bug is life threatening so I shouldn't. It is not a violation of the fourth amendment, it is not illegal for a doctor to refuse a drug test he can choose not to and lose his job. He wants to smoke dope he can choose a different profession.

    The "despotic government" stuff is crap. I think Obama is a tool (who is trampling over the constitution on daily basis by exceeding the executive branch's power) but the US is still better governed than most countries and for a country as large and diverse as it is I don't see any country doing any better.

  4. #14
    I agree with T8. In most states, you risk loosing your license if you are found guilty of possession of illegal drugs, and if you get a DUI or other conviction for illegal substance use. This applies to nurses, physicians, pharmacists, etc. etc. Health care professionals need to be held to a higher standard due to the impact that errors in judgment while under the influence can cause. These rules apply not only to when you are "on duty", but at all times. I personally was involved in a case where a physician was taking both drugs and heavily drinking while on call, and had to help the nurses get this reported when they refused to take a telephone order from her when she was obviously intoxicated, and at home, but still on call. She lost her job and her license.

    (KLD)

  5. #15
    Lol, I always enjoy the snooty "you didn't answer my question" post. If that surgeon signed an agreement that his employment was conditional on passing a drug test, or if state law is such that those tests are mandated yes he should lose his job.

    As for my "logic" being extended to all drivers being pulled over and tested at random (hopefully you meant randomly pulled over and tested, the converse is silly) I can assure you that it is you applying a slippery slope fallacy not I. The point I made which you don't seem to grasp is there is a difference between having the government test you randomly with the intent of prosecuting you (which does fall under the 4th amendment) and having random drug testing be a condition of employment, which is very different beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaidMyDues View Post
    Anecdotal reports are statistically irrelevant. You did not answer my question: Should a highly skilled surgeon with an excellent surgical record who has never treated patients while under the influence lose his/her license if he/she tests positive because he/she happened to smoke a joint during vacation? You also conveniently ignored my point that impaired drivers kill far more people. If you kill someone on the way to your software writing job because you are impaired then that is indeed life threatening. By extension of your logic, all drivers should be pulled over and tested at random for a urine drug test. You could refuse and lose your license. Sound fair?

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI-Nurse View Post
    I agree with T8. In most states, you risk loosing your license if you are found guilty of possession of illegal drugs, and if you get a DUI or other conviction for illegal substance use. This applies to nurses, physicians, pharmacists, etc. etc. Health care professionals need to be held to a higher standard due to the impact that errors in judgment while under the influence can cause. These rules apply not only to when you are "on duty", but at all times. I personally was involved in a case where a physician was taking both drugs and heavily drinking while on call, and had to help the nurses get this reported when they refused to take a telephone order from her when she was obviously intoxicated, and at home, but still on call. She lost her job and her license.

    (KLD)
    Again, where there is probable cause that is one thing and rigorous enforcement is indicated. But anecdotal reports do not prove that this is a statistically significant problem. I will direct my same questions to you as I did to T8 burst. Should a highly skilled surgeon with a superlative record and who has never treated patients while under the influence lose his/her license because he/she smoked a joint while on vacation? Shouldn't all drivers be pulled over at random and tested for urine drug testing because they kill far more people? Are the lives of people killed by such impaired drivers any less important?

  7. #17
    I wonder if it would be possible to run a DNA test on UTI bacteria, and match that DNA to a bacterium in a medical facility? If not let patients bring their specimen in (on your honor) then why not just send the person performing the test to the patient's home? An extra 30 bucks for travel? I'd pay it, not having to catheterize in a germ farm

  8. #18
    If I ran a company, I would say to my employees "what you do on your time is your own business. Just be consistently productive for me." If I DID need to perform drug inquiry for some legal reason, I'd have my employees sign an affidavit saying " I don't use drugs that aren't prescribed." We need to trust a little more in society....it would make us much healthier as people

  9. #19
    Senior Member flying's Avatar
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    We trust people all the time, pretty much every time we drive. We ask society to not get behind a wheel, if they are not capable of paying attention while driving. If we drug tested everyone who drives, what do we test for. I have a prescription for opiates, who decides if I can drive while taking them?
    I have a prescription for Medical marijuana, can I drive on that? There was a campaign from the state police about not driving on prescription drugs, but really its up to each person to decide if they can drive or work on these drugs. Just like driving when you get really old, its really mostly up to the individual to self regulate a lot of this activity. There are ways to get around drug tests you know, so its really all about trusting those around you in the end.
    T12L1 Incomplete Still here This is the place to be 58 years old

  10. #20
    Senior Member zillazangel's Avatar
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    I've always wondered about narcotics in these drug screens. Chad takes prescribed narcotics, but as such would pop positive on a random drug screen or pre-employment screen. Would he be denied employment or be fired?

    And for what it's worth, I agree with PaidMyDues on probable cause to warrant a drug screen in the workplace once hired.
    Wife of Chad (C4/5 since 1988), mom of a great teenager

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