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Thread: Epidural Stimulation Future Trials and Commercial Planning

  1. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Fly_Pelican_Fly View Post
    There is no need for me to say anything more on this subject. I think it is evident from your incoherent ramblings you're a as stupid as you are reckless with misinformation.

    And mods - I assume calling someone an "ignorant little shit" is within the rules of the forum?

    doesn't seem too incoherent, you seem to understand just fine especially when I had a name for you... You know I said it once and I'll say it again, I'm just relaying information, as I said I'm not peddling my own story about this. As for my analogy about the kettles if you could not understand something as simple as that, you're definitely not going to understand the response I got from NRT cause it's not an analogy about kettles haha, it's now the real Conversation about the differences between the spinal stimulating devices.

    So Not exactly missinformation I just spoke with the CEO of NRT those algorithms that I talked ( as in I was relaying the message I was told by someone with close ties to the company) are being developed at Caltech, so I got the confirmation. Even the people in the University of Louisville trial know that their device is obsolete; means to an end, there is no competition they're all working together there was however a little bit of disagreement between Dr. Edgerton, and Harkema on how exactly to introduce the stimulation obviously he ended up being correct, or at the very least more correct than her . I can't show you the results from the case study but the results speak for themselves, they were also done on 15 patients instead of five all showed improvements greater than the five in the university study.

    I asked him if the device in the Louisville trial was nothing more then an implantable version of Medtronics tens unit for nerve pain and simply flooded the spinal cord with electrical impulses and had no real versatility to it. His response : Hi James

    That is fairly accurate. The existing devices regardless of the manufacturer are all approved for the treatment or management of chronic pain. They are also limited in their ability to vary the different stimulation parameters (frequency, amplitude, burst) to the electrode array. Some function in an all-or-none capacity others allow you to create groups of 4 or 8 on a 16 or 32 lead array.


    For the studies in Louisville the team had to manually adjust the pulse generator to get them to function at the desired level. Over time Medtronic gave the team more access to their code or system to make a few more adjustments, however the adjustments were still limited. Our design allows the clinician or user to vary the parameters for each and every electrode on the array and group them into any desired combination or sequence. We also have the ability to go far beyond the conventional channel and electrode design of 16 or 32; the new design we are working on has 176 independent channels.

    The algorithms you inquired about are being developed at Cal Tech. They are know as machine learning algorithms which become smarter as more data is loaded. These algorithms will eventually fine tune and control the system to provide optimum control.


    1. Obviously this device is superior to the one in the Louisville trial both parties know that, which is why med Tronic will not pursue spinal cord stimulation to the market, and Reggie went on to develop a better approach. And NRTs device has quite literally far more settings and versatility (note my superior kettle analogy)
    2. The smart technology that I spoke of is in fact true, again I said that I am not a researcher and I may not have worded it properly but it is being developed and they are going to find the best approach to stimulating specific spinal pathways and gather data on the results. This is very exciting, it will take time but if everything works out we will have specific programs to stimulate desired functions.
    3. Fact is NRTs showed better functional outcomes in more patients with stimulation without involving invasive surgery or implantation! That right there makes this argument completely redundant it should've never taken place! Because it is the superior device and it is the superior approach to treating spinal cord injury in comparison to the implanted epidural stimulator
    4. NRTs Device is the result of men like Dr. Edgerton knowing the Device used on the five patients in Louisville was not what they needed!

    You can completely misquote me, blatantly lie saying I am claiming how someone's body will respond to technology, and then when I see such filth being told;.just because I'm a cripple does not mean I will respond as one. I replied with anger but I gave you the reply you deserved for doing such things not even slightly did I CLAIM how Curt would react, I said that I was hopeful. Taking optimistic words of encouragement to not disregard this just yet, and then turn it around as if to be a statement Is in fact an ignorant action, by definition making you ignorant .

    So you can hide behind my deeply bothered responses that you instigated, run to the mods ( I won't directly insult him again) or you could answer the simple question I asked, between Medtronics epidural stimulator used in the Louisville study and NRT's device which device is superior? ( which has more versatility, has more frequencies,more leads, easily adaptable etc.), and more importantly assuming you are an SCI patient if you have the option of the two which would you choose the very invasive surgical implantation, or the on the skin simulation that showed better results, And has far more to work with and a lot more potential?

    Off topic Pro tip on life, vocalization of aggression and standing up to false claims/Or worse Blanton lies against them, is not a sign of lack of intelligence. Despite what the more "physically/ mentally docile" Will often try to push as reality, to justify themselves. Some of the most creative and intelligent people I know, are also some of the most dangerous and aggressive, you would be wise not to make that assumption.

    -Also if you're car breaks down in the middle of nowhere, a simple mechanic looks awfully intelligent, and that accredited highly educated doctor, lawyer looks awfully stupid. Intelligence is nothing but the ability to learn new skills, and apply them. I am no writer, despite people telling me I should be I don't pretend to be. I have a lot of thoughts and it's hard to get out there, especially with voice recognition that often repeats itself and only my left knuckle..

    But obviously your knowledge of basic neurology as I said is better than mine that is evident but I'd say Don't take yourself too seriously, neurology and writing is far from everything! And obviously you were mistaken in terms of not being able to claim which of these two devices is superior, i've gone through clinical data and provided the facts gathered that I could (these on the Internet if you look), I quoted someone far more knowledgable on both of these technologies ( SCI treatments and rehabilitation in general) than either of us, I then contacted the CEO and provided his response all you have done is remain speculative and question things, so your superior knowledge of neurology didn't do shit because your argument was never even there, and technically it wasn't against me! For god sake's even you knew that Reggie felt the epidural stimulator wasn't enough, you brought that up Like WTF haha

    Not to mention you preach false dichotomy , For blue blazes claiming stem cells will cure spinal cord injury is false dichotomy, I think a lot of medical practitioners stumble onto those grounds, until it's proven they were correct and their approach was intact the best option...
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 05-06-2016 at 07:25 PM.

  2. #352
    I also want to point out I have never said that this is a one on treatment or cure to spinal cord injury, ( what I have said is that NRT device compared to Medtronics is superior which is true, I came to the conclusion because the researchers know that, The data supports it, fucking Medtronics knows that!!)c even with the perfect stimulation device, I believe (and I have only said) that this is a big step in the rehabilitation component. However every single patient that has used a spinal stimulator has recovered some function, often resulting in big life changes. I personally believe and I am excited for when a regenerative treatment is perfected, and this device is used afterwords during the intensive continuous rehabilitation process, along with various devices functional electrostimulation, gait trainers, vibration plates, antigravity beds etc. I strongly believe there would be substantial recovery! Seeing as spinal stimulation has resulted in pretty good recovery on its own, and I know of at least one stem cell clinical trial that has done the same; combined the two, with the kind of rehabilitation protocol Necessary for continuous stimulation that hasn't been implemented after any trial as of yet (dr. Young's was the closest with the Kumming walking program, every other rehab protocol pales in comparison, and that trial had pretty interesting results; with stem cells that in my opinion aren't the best option but what do I know) . I think we would see something big!
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 05-05-2016 at 09:36 PM.

  3. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    I would suggest that you make an appointment with Kennedy Krieger, I don't want to see people shocking themselves willy-nilly. They have been very open and helpful. It is an off the shelf stim machine. My son is 6' tall and 140 lbs, it hasn't worked as well on heavier people with larger waists. He has had volitional movement of his legs and ankles for the first time in 8 years but feels it is somehow connected to his breathing. We have used a channel from a RTI 300 to stim his cord while walking in gait mode on a weight assisted treadmill with trainers with little noticeable reaction. He is back from college this week and we hope to move forward with trying new things. We are using much lower power than we think any of the labs are using. We have had no long lasting return of function or sensation yet. I don't want to risk pushing too hard and causing any problems for my son or anyone else. I am always concerned that new sensation could come in many forms and I don't want to risk negative returns. If The stim changes his bladder or bowel (his I.C. And bowel program are working well) and cause pain I would not be able to forgive myself. These Labs have a very difficult job, let them do it. When they release information they cause people like us to "dive into the water" without checking the depth. There are many positive things on the horizon, be positive and live your life.

    We first tried this stim at KK in August of 2015. I wanted to pull my son out of college and start home experimenting full time. He chose to go back to school instead. I hate when my kids are more grounded and smarter than I am. He is coming home this week and convinced me to not change our electric service to 480volts YET!

    I have contacted several of the leading American labs and not yet had any replies. I can't help but think that they are light years ahead of anything I can conceive of. We have an unusual situation, we have a very small group of people with SCIs that we see multiple times every week for many years.

    WOW, Hold on dude you called me out because I stated that NRT's transcutaneous stimulator may not be suitable for very complete and chronic injuries, which is what I was told by them. You then told me to change my attitude, based on the fact your son has responded to transcutaneous stimulation but it wasn't even NRTs Device? That's not right, that's not remotely right we don't even know if what your son has gotten is anything even remotely on par. I assumed based on the conviction in the tone of your writing your son was obviously involved in the transcutaneous stimulator case study , guess not. This is a massive piss off because I genuinely found it very encouraging that he is responding "incredibly" (your exact words) to the transcutaneous eight years after injury, because as someone four years post Asia A I was told that I may be to chronic, but I got my hopes up based on what you said! so guess I have to wait five years for the implantable still!!! we weren't even talking about the same thing , And obviously from what you've written he's not even responding well at all let alone anywhere near the incredible results that were done in the lab. So when I stated that they don't know if the transcutaneous stimulators best suited for very chronic injury,which is why they want to develop the implantable version that was a fact, nothing to do with my attitude that's what I was fucking told. And it turns out you have no grounds to call me out on that anyways, that's ridiculous. It seems I'm not the one that needs to change their attitude talk about jumping the gun, yet again I've learned not to mistake Age as a true indication of knowledge and maturity.

    I now understand why you didn't address my response

    InContext what you said in this post, I can trigger leg movement with my breathing because of spasticity, sometimes it seems as if I did it myself many times my parents have been caught off guard and start crying as if a miracle happened. You'll know it's working if he has autonomic improvements once the device is off, temperature regulation, bladder, bowel, AD, sexual function.b by the way in the article I read I think the most chronic was under four years, so there's that!


    Hey pelican, pelican guy where is your misinformation post on this!?
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 05-06-2016 at 07:31 PM.

  4. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    I would suggest that you make an appointment with Kennedy Krieger, I don't want to see people shocking themselves willy-nilly. They have been very open and helpful. It is an off the shelf stim machine. My son is 6' tall and 140 lbs, it hasn't worked as well on heavier people with larger waists. He has had volitional movement of his legs and ankles for the first time in 8 years but feels it is somehow connected to his breathing. We have used a channel from a RTI 300 to stim his cord while walking in gait mode on a weight assisted treadmill with trainers with little noticeable reaction. He is back from college this week and we hope to move forward with trying new things. We are using much lower power than we think any of the labs are using. We have had no long lasting return of function or sensation yet. I don't want to risk pushing too hard and causing any problems for my son or anyone else. I am always concerned that new sensation could come in many forms and I don't want to risk negative returns. If The stim changes his bladder or bowel (his I.C. And bowel program are working well) and cause pain I would not be able to forgive myself. These Labs have a very difficult job, let them do it. When they release information they cause people like us to "dive into the water" without checking the depth. There are many positive things on the horizon, be positive and live your life.

    We first tried this stim at KK in August of 2015. I wanted to pull my son out of college and start home experimenting full time. He chose to go back to school instead. I hate when my kids are more grounded and smarter than I am. He is coming home this week and convinced me to not change our electric service to 480volts YET!

    I have contacted several of the leading American labs and not yet had any replies. I can't help but think that they are light years ahead of anything I can conceive of. We have an unusual situation, we have a very small group of people with SCIs that we see multiple times every week for many years.
    would you mind sharing the device with us? i am in st.louis and have no way of getting to kennedy krieger

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAMESRRR View Post
    would you mind sharing the device with us? i am in st.louis and have no way of getting to kennedy krieger

    nrf already posted that it was the head unit (sage 7 or sage 10) from an RT300 FES bike.
    I'm curious what frequency, voltage, pulse width and phase you've used.

    Thanks

  6. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Mize View Post
    nrf already posted that it was the head unit (sage 7 or sage 10) from an RT300 FES bike.
    I'm curious what frequency, voltage, pulse width and phase you've used.

    Thanks
    There was an RTI 300 for sale awhile back. LINK
    Last edited by GRAMMY; 05-07-2016 at 04:45 PM.

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mize View Post
    nrf already posted that it was the head unit (sage 7 or sage 10) from an RT300 FES bike.
    I'm curious what frequency, voltage, pulse width and phase you've used.

    Thanks
    The head unit from the RTI is NOT showing noticeable movement or sensation.. Be very careful of paying any attention to JamesMcM or his replies, he claims that people said things they never said (or implied) in some twisted attempt to prove he actually has an inside relationship with medical device movers and shakers.

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    The head unit from the RTI is NOT showing noticeable movement or sensation.. Be very careful of paying any attention to JamesMcM or his replies, he claims that people said things they never said (or implied) in some twisted attempt to prove he actually has an inside relationship with medical device movers and shakers.
    What I wrote has nothing to do with James. You posted that your son made great progress with a stimulator from Kennedy Krieger. You then later posted that the unit was from an RT300 used to stim his back while using a walking harness on a treadmill. Please correct me if that is incorrect.

    If it is correct then please elaborate.

  9. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    My son is 8 years post injury C5/6 ASIA A, he is responding incredibly to "on the skin stimulator!". You might want to check your references then check your attitude. Your opinion has value, your opinion stated as fact is destructive.
    NRF there it is clear as day, this is what you sent me after I stated that NRT doesn't think transcutaneous stimulator will work as good as they want on very severe and very chronic injuries. I did check my references and I was correct I am four years post Asia A and the transcutaneous stimulator may not be the best approach for me or anyone else far more chronic and severe as myself apparently. Your quotations of on the skin stimulator does not sufficiently indicate that your are talking about some random stimulation device when you are addressing me for discussing NRTs "on the skin stimulator" (my words, but Voice dictation has a hard time with transcutaneous) but never once have I talked about any other "on the skin stimulation" device other than NRTs ! So then you coming in randomly to "called me" out about how what I stated was "false" ( which it wasn't) it would've been proper to say that your son is responding "incredibly" to on the skin stimulation from a basic device from RTI. But clear as day from what you've written your son isn't responding "incredibly" that's false hope,your son has not responded anywhere near the "incredible" results from NRTs device. Because your son is 8 years post and Asia A it is highly likely that the company would want to do an implantable device! If he were to ever get it. I didn't twist your words, clearly you didn't worded that incorrectly, you should've directly stated that you were talking about a completely different device than I was, especially considering you were quoting me
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 05-07-2016 at 05:16 PM.

  10. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    The head unit from the RTI is NOT showing noticeable movement or sensation.. Be very careful of paying any attention to JamesMcM or his replies, he claims that people said things they never said (or implied) in some twisted attempt to prove he actually has an inside relationship with medical device movers and shakers.
    Buddy again clear as Day you said your son is responding INCREDABLY. Now everyone's excited wondering how you did it what model you used, how they can get it etc. Than incredibly turned into my son thinks he's triggering movement with his breathing ( just point out I do that) now it is NOT showing noticeable movement or sensation. So you can stop slandering my name cause you dug your own hole. How do you justify saying he is responding incredibly with no noticeable motor or sensory function let alone autonomic function? Especially in context to the transcutaneous stimulator, how do you expect people to think when you say he's responding incredibly. Seems you're the one we shouldn't pay attention to...

    BTW my responses are going to actual data and information from the company so there's that lmfao.
    Last edited by JamesMcM; 05-07-2016 at 05:16 PM.

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