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Thread: Epidural Stimulation Future Trials and Commercial Planning

  1. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    Wow whys that. I'm hurting my shoulder typing this. Facts are facts and NRTs stimulator is far superior I will not let garbage spread that med Tronics "tens unit" is on par with it.

    "A false dichotomy is an informal fallacy consisting of a supposed dichotomy which fails one or both of the conditions: it is not jointly exhaustive and/or not mutually exclusive."

  2. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    I merely use that as an example to exemplify how inferior medTronic stimulator is compared to NRTs which has shown better results from simple noninvasive stimulation! I'm not creating my own world I'm just using an analogy. Sir, you were the one that said neither of these devices can be claimed as superior to the other ( in terms of potential for treating SCI), that is false I have explained to you why that is false and you still haven't addressed that!
    No, I said it's a false dichotomy to compare them.

    Other than spreading simple doubt , Have you even have access to this case study results? Me comparing pear to apples is exactly the irony of the situation, Dr. Edgerton stimulator is just more suited for spinal cord injury the epidural stimulator used on the five patients out of the University of Louisville is a simplistic implantable tens unit The best proved the surgery is safe and doable, and that this can be a viable approach with a more well-suited device!
    Again you have just twisted what I said. Look up false dichotomy again.

    I called you ignorant because you claimed that there was a lot of false information on here, yet your previous post you assumed that I didn't realize that doctor Edgerton was developing an implantable device as well, which if you actually went through my post on this thread you would evidently see I was well aware of that!
    No, again I didn't say this and you are making stuff up. Reggie has been very open about needing a better implant since Rob Summers was implanted in 2009. NRT has been looking for funding since at least 2010 for the development and commercialisation of an implant. The transcutaneous approach was a fairly new development thanks to Yury's work and made NRT change it's business strategy from there. I am sure you'll find some way to disagree with this also.

    "So because Gregoire Courtine is younger his scientific knowledge and approach is inferior to Reggie's? Excellent reasoning that." No no, talk about twisting words ( just like you saying I claimed NRT already had the perfect algorithm to treat spinal cord injury come on keep it up ) I merely said that in terms of just spinal stimulation and creating specific pathways to modulate spinal signals that could be A possibility considering the man has been at this specific project for a few decades, because of that in all likelihood he probably has more knowledge on this approach, more often than not that's true for any kind of profession.
    I dont even know where to start. For a start you might want to reaffirm your understanding of what "mechanism of action" means. Then I would make sure you understand how to use the term "spinal pathway".

    Again Dr. Edergertons device is the only spinal stimulator to show improvements without involving very invasive surgery, OK that's a fact the data speaks for itself so far it is shown better improvements compared to the epidural stimulator as well! Yet another thing you continue to ignore and rather just pick and choose your battles! I addresseverything that you say paragraph by paragraph
    I am not disputing that UCLA publication of the 5 is the first to show a change in ASIA classification via transcutaneous neuromodulation. Where did I dispute that?

    Of coarse Dr. Courtice's work hasn't seen human patients yet at least to my knowledge, and he's targeting acute injuries and I think neurotrophic factors could greatly enhance the spinal stimulator's outcome not to mention a state of the art gait trainer , His approach is new, aspiring and bold and it just may show great results! Again two very different approaches and NRT's device and University of Louisville are more on the same category of approach
    Courtine has indicated the first cohort for his implant will be incomplete injuries. I highly doubt it will be acute injuries as that is just not practical.

    Do you mean serotonergic agonists here? You do know that the UCLA data from the transcutaneous stimulation also includes a serotonergic agonist? So would that mean the NRT device falls into the same category at Gregoire's approach?

    "You stated earlier that NRT's algorithms would discover the mechanism of action of neuromodulation of the spinal cord. Did you know that there isn't an SCI therapy or technique in the world right now that is able to accurately describe the mechanism of action of any repair or change in the spinal cord? The imaging techniques though evolving are still someway short as is the current electrophysiology technology. How will the new stimulator leap to the front and discover and explain this mechanism?" Do you really need to state that again, yes everyone is aware as of right now nobody knows how exactly to repair the spinal cord,painfully obvious. Our lack of imaging techniques to even confirm axon regrowth or neuron output is upsetting. But with this device their team seems very confident that they will be able to (through a hell of a lot of trial and error and the fact that their device is actually able to adjust in such a way) developeand perfect various algorithms specifically designed to elicit a reaction in a specific function such as hand function! I can't talk about exactly what they have achieved yet, and even with what I've been shown it is far from everything. Once they develop these specific algorithms they won't have cured SCI rather these will become vital in a rehabilitation effort along with various equipment to re-modulate the spinal cord by eliciting neuro plasticity (LAYMANs terms), So the actual motor and sensory function will remain once the devices is off, so bladder function will be restored etc. Their device is state-of-the-art in comparison to Medtronics to my understanding they aren't going to try and go after the market that is SCI, wonder why eh. Which is where you were right there is no competition between them!
    Look up "mechanism of action". I think you have mixed that up with variable stimulation parameters and optimal functional output. Sandwiched in between the two is a mechanism of action in the spinal cord. The algorithms and machine learning of the device cannot explain that.

    Woolly argument, then there is no argument here you literally arnt putting up any argument you are just misinterpreting what I say, and going on about how I Think I know best! Nothing could be farther from the truth, I get my information from far more qualified and educated individuals I then relay what I can, based on everything I've seen and been told your statement that I cannot claim either of the devices are superior to one another is blatantly false. You know as long as were talking about actually treating spinal cord injury, if we are talking about the efforts, merits and contributions of the researchers involved then that's a different story I guess. Your Last paragraph is laughable,why don't we just get on the subject of "do you think you're the only one's that suffering" simply because I'm providing my perspective .
    False dichotomy again. You're literally arguing with yourself. Lol.

    BTW there's no biased here if dr. Harkemas The Durrell stimulator showed as much promise as NRTs does well then this conversation would be completely reversed, but that's not the case I only care about getting myself and everyone that's willing to put the work in out of these chairs.
    I think that sums your personality up nicely.
    Last edited by Fly_Pelican_Fly; 05-04-2016 at 05:12 AM.

  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    Curt, I understand you're pretty chronic injuryit's probably safe to say the on the skin stimulator wouldn't do much for you! But I would love to see you get implanted with NRTs implantable stimulator!probably going to be five years before commercially unfortunately, but you get yourself One hopefully the arm settings are fully understood and identified by then. Turn that thing on and go on your hand cycle every day, I can't tell you what happened but i d be very interested to see
    My son is 8 years post injury C5/6 ASIA A, he is responding incredibly to "on the skin stimulator!". You might want to check your references then check your attitude. Your opinion has value, your opinion stated as fact is destructive.

  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    My son is 8 years post injury C5/6 ASIA A, he is responding incredibly to "on the skin stimulator!". You might want to check your references then check your attitude. Your opinion has value, your opinion stated as fact is destructive.
    This is great to hear! I know. They do expect many A/completes will require implanted, but that's the beauty of the transcutaneus - might as well try that first!

  5. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    My son is 8 years post injury C5/6 ASIA A, he is responding incredibly to "on the skin stimulator!". You might want to check your references then check your attitude. Your opinion has value, your opinion stated as fact is destructive.
    Is your son using a transcutaneous stimulator that is actually stimulating his spinal cord, enabling voluntary control when it is turned on, as has been seen in previous studies?

  6. #316
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    I'm old so find this confusing. NRF, your son has spasms or no? As in, complete?
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    Is your son using a transcutaneous stimulator that is actually stimulating his spinal cord, enabling voluntary control when it is turned on, as has been seen in previous studies?
    Yes.

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynnifer View Post
    I'm old so find this confusing. NRF, your son has spasms or no? As in, complete?
    He has spasms, does the presence of spasms matter for ASIA score in Canada?

  9. #319
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    Could you share information on the make and model of whatever he is using? Are you using this on your own or in conjunction with FES professionals?
    KB

  10. #320
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrf View Post
    He has spasms, does the presence of spasms matter for ASIA score in Canada?
    Asia is an American thing. ASIA = American Spinal Injury Association. Valid question as the A just indicates he can't feel his Anus ... thought I know that's now what it stands for! lol
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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