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Thread: Empirical evidence for execised based recovery for imcompletes

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  1. #1
    Senior Member flying's Avatar
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    Empirical evidence for execised based recovery for imcompletes

    What evidence is there? For three years, I go to bed with pieces of muscles that are not happy from being over worked. The continuous exercise, and isometrics when relaxing, week after week, year after year, full time, makes for some really sore muscles to go along with the neurogenic pain. Is there any real evidence that this is any better then every couple of months, working up what has come back, and saving oneself a lot of pain. I am still getting useable return, so is that part of this Empirical evidence?
    I world think that the PT industry would be all over this question, since it is part of there paycheck.
    T12L1 Incomplete Still here This is the place to be 58 years old

  2. #2
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    Awesome question. Anxious to see what answers arise. what are your feelings about the results you are getting?

  3. #3
    flying

    Are you asking for evidence of complete recovery from SCI in incompletes due to exercise? If so, I would say that outside of specific individual cases, you won't find a study that shows all subjects who participated in "X" therapy showed complete recovery. There is, however, ample evidence of incompletes regaining lost function from exercise or activity based therapy. A few citations:

    http://www.nature.com/sc/journal/v46...sc200856a.html

    http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/1...12Y.0000000026

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23411766

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19489091

    http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/86/10/1406.long

    You state that your muscles are being "over worked", are you allowing for appropriate rest days? You also say you are performing "continuous exercise and isometric when relaxing", this would suggest that you are not allowing your muscles to recover from each exercise session. As with an able bodied individual, you have to allow your body to recover between workouts or you will experience over-training and eventually de-training.


    Eric Harness, CSCS
    Founder/President
    Neuro Ex, Inc
    Adaptive Performance and Neuro Recovery

  4. #4
    Senior Member flying's Avatar
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    AnnieM
    I'm happy that I'm still getting return, this return has helped me greatly with my big problem. For some reason it is very painful for me to sit for very long, especially sitting still. I have enough return to stand up with support, and walk in place, or lay my upper body on something while standing, so I can relieve my rear end. Its getting easer to stay up for longer periods at a time. More standing equals less pain.


    Snowman you are probably right about not taking any rest with the muscles. Thanks for pointing that out. Its really not in my blood to stop, but maybe its a good idea. from time to time.
    And thanks for the links, I read them, but its clear that there is no way to really test out for sure if exercise can bring back return. That being said I will keep going and thank my lucky stars that its working for me, but take more rest time the peace's of muscles that are being overworked, maybe.
    The problem with resting what is working, is that to get a tinny just starting back peace to work at all, you have to flex the muscles around it that do work over and over. Could be worse that's for sure.
    Last edited by flying; 02-17-2014 at 11:59 PM.
    T12L1 Incomplete Still here This is the place to be 58 years old

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    Senior Member flying's Avatar
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    Anybody else think that they are getting exercise based return, or think the idea is workable. I know there are lots of very active people, that no matter what they do, they cannot get any more return, even though they are incompletes, and exercise a lot. So is the different just in the nature of are various injuries or what?
    T12L1 Incomplete Still here This is the place to be 58 years old

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by flying View Post
    Anybody else think that they are getting exercise based return, or think the idea is workable. I know there are lots of very active people, that no matter what they do, they cannot get any more return, even though they are incompletes, and exercise a lot. So is the different just in the nature of are various injuries or what?
    You bet - I got TONS of exercised based return - and then my shoulders, elbows, wrists, thumbs and fusion sites started to go south to the point I have to meter out my efforts if I'm going to be here & able to go outdoors and run my business for a few more years - not that I have quit exercising..

    I have to say the model of SCI as a steep improvement curve followed by a plateau and then a long slow decline is what I am experiencing - just trying to slow the decline - I could have made the plateau last longer, but I've went at it pretty hard - 8.5yrs out right now, so far…...

  7. #7
    I've found that the only return I've been getting has been in the form of endurance and muscle mass (the latter of which helps with the sitting pain). I don't really get any return in the form of new muscle groups coming back online or increased power (I can exert the same amount of force as always, it just takes me longer to get tired).

    I think this is generally in line with the principle of being able to work the muscles that are still connected, but at a certain point the nerves don't grow back any more.
    L2 incomplete with a pretty bad limp since 10/31/2011.

  8. #8
    Hi, I do not post often but I feel that there is empirical evidence for exercise based recovery. I was injured in 2002, C6-C7 sci, then after going to sci step off and on for a number of years I have gained more than I was expected to gain. I was dependent, unable to get out of the chair w/o assistance. Blood pressure issues. And since doing sci step, I am independent, little blood pressure issues, balance has improved and left sci step ready to train w/kafos. Unfortunately as everyone knows, sci step closed so I was unable to continue improving. However, I found NeuroGym here in Quebec that is helping me continue my kafo training, and I am feeling stronger & taking more steps w/my kafos. Not sure if the evidence you were looking for is out of the chair walking, but to me, just being able to feel my legs "walk" with the kafos is more recovery than expected. Oh, Flying, you said something interesting that I can relate, not sure if it is a bad thing, since starting these recovery programs, & working hard at NeuroGym, I find I too cannot sit for long periods, luckily, I can transfer onto my standing frame/glider and "move my legs" using the muscles I use to train w/kafos to move the glider. Saves on my shoulders. Hope my experience adds to the answer on empirical evidence for exercise based recovery.


    Oh, as for pain, it is a catch 22 for me, damn if I exercise too much and damn if I do not, but exercising feels like the lesser of the 2 evils, so I continue.


    take care!

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    Karlom24 Thanks for you reply, very interesting.

    Steve How did you do below your injury site? I hear you about the shoulders, I can really feel them all righty

    Snowman mentioned that maybe I need to have more rest days, and that I might be over working some muscles. But to me, what I'm trying to do, is when I get a small spark or bit of feeling in a muscle in a spot is to work it to death. The point of this is not to get this smaller then a marble size peace of muscle strong, but to send signal over and over to the area, to try to get a larger peace of muscle to work. In the process the first peace of muscle is way over worked, but hopefully the repetition will expand into more of the muscle. Of course at times one questions if all this effort is worth it, but so far I keep getting return at about the same rate at 3 years and 2 months out. Small but steady improvements. I think that if you can feel inside your muscle even a little bit, then you can work it over and over again, and this will help.
    But of course maybe its just the nature of my injury, and this will not work for other incompletes, and if I did nothing I would still get the same return. That's the big question.
    How much am I really helping this return along?
    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by flying; 03-23-2014 at 02:32 PM.
    T12L1 Incomplete Still here This is the place to be 58 years old

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by flying View Post

    Steve How did you do below your injury site? I hear you about the shoulders, I can really feel them all righty


    How much am I really helping this return along?
    Any thoughts?
    After 1.5yrs I pretty much had everything I was going to get.
    At some point healing stops and scarring takes over.

    At some point you stop PT and just get on with life, which hopefully includes work & play of your choice - sure??.you can't do everything you used to, but at least we flush our turds with drinking water, yeah?

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