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Thread: Large animal trial for Chondroitinase is underway

  1. #41
    Senior Member ian's Avatar
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    No animal trial for sci will ever translate into a human one, thats just a fact. Your comment about accelerating human trials is incorrect, if it was correct we would have had a cure for sci 20 years ago. Chondroitinase has already shown positive results many times. Animal trials are not required, by supporting animal trials you are actually delaying the cure, why cant you people understand this? That thinking is one of the main reasons we could have an effective treatment for sci and dont. We know how to cure dogs, rats , mice and sundry other animal species. Enough already, demand human trials.

  2. #42
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    ian agreed with you.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    On top of being able to tell us something about walking and motor function, dogs can be trained when and where they are allowed to go to the bathroom, which makes learning about bowel and bladder function much easier. Additionally, these are all dogs with "real world" spinal cord injuries, rather than ones perfectly created in a lab, so this trial will tell us what affect ch'ase has on those types of injuries. Lastly, it will give us insight into whether or not ch'ase plus rehabilitation can be effective in mammals larger than rats. If this trial shows no efficacy for anything, it lets us know that ch'ase may not be worth pursuing any further (at least as it was used in this trial.) If this trial shows positive results, it will greatly accelerate the pace at which human trials may begin.

    This trial is probably one of the most important animal trials to date.
    Thanks Tomsonite, You do a great job explaining the need to have the trial. Most every country simply won't allow their citizens to be used as lab rats.

    There is work going on to make the dirty research reagent used in the animal lab experiments into a clean form that can be used on human beings.

    For anyone wanting to follow the trial via their Facebook, here's the FACEBOOK link...

    http://www.spinal-research.org/wp-co...e-edition2.pdf

    They now have 23 patients in the trial - only 37 more to go before they can finish the study.
    Last edited by GRAMMY; 12-28-2014 at 01:28 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member ian's Avatar
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    Jesus h. We have known the efficacy of Chondroitinase since at least 2002, we dont need any more animal trials. Pull your heads out and stop delaying effective treatments for sci. Chondroitinase needs to be used on humans, we already know and have known for more than a decade that it works, how hard is it to understand. Stop being dupes for these people who are just replicating trials on animals to continue their research funding. No wonder people are deserting this site in droves, you people are stopping treatments from happening, not promoting them.

    [quote]Nature 416, 636-640 (11 April 2002) | doi:10.1038/416636a; Received 4 September 2001; Accepted 8 February 2002

    Chondroitinase ABC promotes functional recovery after spinal cord injury

    Elizabeth J. Bradbury1, Lawrence D. F. Moon2,4, Reena J. Popat1, Von R. King3, Gavin S. Bennett1, Preena N. Patel1, James W. Fawcett2 & Stephen B. McMahon1
    [quote]
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v416/n6881/full/416636a.html

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    No animal trial for sci will ever translate into a human one, thats just a fact.
    That is not a fact. That is an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    Your comment about accelerating human trials is incorrect, if it was correct we would have had a cure for sci 20 years ago.
    If, 20 years ago, animals had been completely cured of SCIs, then you would be correct

    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    Chondroitinase has already shown positive results many times. Animal trials are not required, by supporting animal trials you are actually delaying the cure, why cant you people understand this? That thinking is one of the main reasons we could have an effective treatment for sci and dont. We know how to cure dogs, rats , mice and sundry other animal species. Enough already, demand human trials.
    Please provide the research done in which dogs, cats, mice, or other animals have been cured from chronic, complete spinal cord injuries.

    I am not aware of any study in which an animal completely lost bowel, bladder, sexual, and autonomic function as well as all ability to voluntarily control their limbs or effectively ambulate, stay injured to a chronic time point at which their neurological condition was stable, then re-gain all of those functions to the degree that an untrained eye couldn't tell they had ever been injured. If you think anything less than that is a cure, then your definition is different from most other people.

    If there was a reason to just say "screw the mechanism, let's test things on humans", why are you complaining about it on here? Scientists will never be allowed to test things on humans without solid animal evidence to back it up first. It is not the scientists that don't want to do human trials, it is regulatory agencies like the FDA (i'm sure you have something similar in Australia) that don't allow that to happen in the first place.

  6. #46
    Senior Member ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    That is not a fact. That is an opinion.
    really? So why dont we have an effective treatrment?


    If, 20 years ago, animals had been completely cured of SCIs, then you would be correct
    I can see you are new to this and do not have the depth of understanding, there will never be a "complete" cure for sci, animal or otherwise. They have however been showing rodents walking and regaining function after various treatments for more than 20 years.



    Please provide the research done in which dogs, cats, mice, or other animals have been cured from chronic, complete spinal cord injuries.
    read the link in my previous post, if you want to start a debate without reading my posts first them I am going to go to town on you, dont start arguing until you have at least a little knowledge of this .

    I am not aware of any study in which an animal completely lost bowel, bladder, sexual, and autonomic function as well as all ability to voluntarily control their limbs or effectively ambulate, stay injured to a chronic time point at which their neurological condition was stable, then re-gain all of those functions to the degree that an untrained eye couldn't tell they had ever been injured. If you think anything less than that is a cure, then your definition is different from most other people.
    If you are waiting for this then you grandchildren may possibly see it, but in our lifetimes this will be impossible. You really do need to learn more about this.

    If there was a reason to just say "screw the mechanism, let's test things on humans", why are you complaining about it on here? Scientists will never be allowed to test things on humans without solid animal evidence to back it up first. It is not the scientists that don't want to do human trials, it is regulatory agencies like the FDA (i'm sure you have something similar in Australia) that don't allow that to happen in the first place.
    we have the solid animal evidence, what on earth is wrong with you? please dont come back to this until you are least have a little knowledge of the subject or learn to read scientific abstracts.

  7. #47
    Thanks Ian. I wonder if suicide is enough to make people understand that allowing *nothing* is not acceptable. I certainly will accept the risk of death or less function for at least a shot at some improvement. I got hurt 16 months ago and not a single thing has been suggested to me to improve my condition. Not one. Nothing. There are epidural stimulators, stem cell treatments, drug treatments, exoskeletons, exercise therapies, etc. and not a single course of action has been presented to me. I was not an SCI expert before my accident. I remember my surgeon kept asking me if all my questions had been answered, hell I didn't have a clue what to ask! Nothing has ever changed in the treatment of SCI since the stone age yet all sorts of new technologies have been introduced (MRI, FES, etc). The health care industry should be embarrassed at the lack of progress. I can't even get my hardware removed because these incompetant, self grandising doctors will not take a chance unless they are assured of their own success. It all makes me sick to my stomach. I know that my suicide would be overlooked with just a shrug of the shoulders.

  8. #48
    Senior Member ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dlevy View Post
    Thanks Ian. I wonder if suicide is enough to make people understand that allowing *nothing* is not acceptable. I certainly will accept the risk of death or less function for at least a shot at some improvement. I got hurt 16 months ago and not a single thing has been suggested to me to improve my condition. Not one. Nothing. There are epidural stimulators, stem cell treatments, drug treatments, exoskeletons, exercise therapies, etc. and not a single course of action has been presented to me. I was not an SCI expert before my accident. I remember my surgeon kept asking me if all my questions had been answered, hell I didn't have a clue what to ask! Nothing has ever changed in the treatment of SCI since the stone age yet all sorts of new technologies have been introduced (MRI, FES, etc). The health care industry should be embarrassed at the lack of progress. I can't even get my hardware removed because these incompetant, self grandising doctors will not take a chance unless they are assured of their own success. It all makes me sick to my stomach. I know that my suicide would be overlooked with just a shrug of the shoulders.
    I have come to the conclusion there is only 1 thing which will bring any effective therapies forward, we need to get angry, very angry. Cutting and pasting animal studies is hampering any effective therapy, so is the thinking displayed in this thread that nothing less than a box tied in a ribbon with a compete cure inside will suffice. My daughters a quad, hell, she would be ecstatic at only any hand function return, shes not asking for a cure, just wants to be able to take care of her own personal care, we are being ignored by researchers, they dont care, its about continuation of research funding and getting their name in publications. this thread is a prime example of what i am saying, people posting here dont even seen aware that there have a been a raft of animal studies since 2000 showing the benefit of chondroitinase, why on earth do we need more animal studies and why isnt 1 single researcher taking the step after 15 years of this drug showing incredible promise to use this on humans? . I call people posting these studies over and over again useful idiots. Big Pharma does not want an effective treatment, why cant people see this, they love us top keep posting results of animal studies why they make billions from not having a treatment. look at the AIDS community, they would have nothing if they didnt get angry, AIDS appeared in western society a few decades ago, SCI has been with us forever. Whats going on? I am angry, and every single [person in a wheelchair should be angry, we should also be angry at the useful dupes within our community who are perpetrating the lack of an effective treatment. I expect to be banned from this site shortly, people before who have expressed these same sentiments have been previously. Some have chosen never to post here again because of the lack of understanding from the SCI community about what is being perpetrated here and anyone who trusts a medical professional in these matters is a fool, they are owned hook liner and sinker by the pharmceutical industry. 10 years ago we had a treatment which increased function in humans, i know personally 1 person in Australia who was on it in phase 2 trials and when the results were known to be positive it was immediately canned with no reason given.

  9. #49
    Senior Member ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAMMY View Post
    Thanks Tomsonite, You do a great job explaining the need to have the trial. Most every country simply won't allow their citizens to be used as lab rats.

    There is work going on to make the dirty research reagent used in the animal lab experiments into a clean form that can be used on human beings.

    For anyone wanting to follow the trial via their Facebook, here's the FACEBOOK link...
    complete and utter rubbish, no problem with proceeding to human trials, nothing to do with lab rats.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    really? So why dont we have an effective treatrment?
    You said "no animal trial will ever translate into a human one, that is just a fact". Unless you can tell the future, I don't see how you can conclude this is a fact. Besides, bodyweight supported locomotor training, epidural stimulation, and Olfactory ensheathing cells, all of which have demonstrated tremendous efficacy in humans, are based on decades of animal research.


    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    I can see you are new to this and do not have the depth of understanding, there will never be a "complete" cure for sci, animal or otherwise. They have however been showing rodents walking and regaining function after various treatments for more than 20 years.
    You said the word "Cure". The majority of the SCI community agrees that a cure would be healing someone with a spinal cord injury to the point where a casual observer would not know the person is disabled. This involves a lot more than walking. If you have a different definition of the word "cure" then you should define it before using it in this context.



    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    read the link in my previous post, if you want to start a debate without reading my posts first them I am going to go to town on you, dont start arguing until you have at least a little knowledge of this .

    If you are waiting for this then you grandchildren may possibly see it, but in our lifetimes this will be impossible. You really do need to learn more about this.

    we have the solid animal evidence, what on earth is wrong with you? please dont come back to this until you are least have a little knowledge of the subject or learn to read scientific abstracts.
    I didn't initially read the link you posted because it didn't contain a title for the study, and I didn't have the time. But I have read it now. First, you must consider that what you posted is just an abstract. It is not the full study, and doesn't present any actual data supporting the claims of the abstract. If you want to assert a point based on scientific literature, you need to present points from the whole paper, not just the abstract. I'm assuming since I am new to this, and you clearly know more than anyone else on the board, you already knew that, and have already read the entire article. So for the benefit of everyone else, let me present some points made in the full paper that are not contained in the abstract:

    -The animals received a laboratory controlled, surgically implemented bilateral dorsal crush lesion injury, something that is not representative of most human, real-world SCIs. Additionally, ch'ase was given immediately, during the same surgery. How many people do you know who who have an opportunity to get ch'ase within seconds after they are injured? CSPGs in a chronic, stable injury are vastly different from ones that are just forming seconds after injury.
    -The baseline testing done with the rats infers that their injuries were incomplete, since baseline testing involves walking. However, completeness of the lesion is not reported, nor was it assessed with a standardized measure such as the BBB. So we don't know from reading this article whether the rats had complete injuries or not.
    -No regeneration beyond 4mm was reported, with the majority of regeneration observed being 2mm. This is not far enough for connections to be made from the brain to the periphery, or vice-versa. Additionally, when the rats in the study were given a sensory function task, the article states "unlesioned sham controls could perform these tasks quickly. Lesioned rats were severely impaired with or without ChABC treatment. These impairments persisted throughout six weeks of testing, consistent with the failure of ChABC treatment to promote regeneration to hindbrain sensory nuclei."

    The paper does report significantly increased walking ability in these rats, and reports on some regeneration and degredation of CS-GAG at the injury site, all of which are good things. They would be necessary to improve function in someone with an SCI. But you need to consider all the other variables - the ch'ase was given literally during the injury, instead of after the lesion had time to stabilize. The rats may or may not have been incomplete to begin with. The article presents sensory function not getting any better and confirms that connections to the sensory cortex were NOT made. Additionally, nothing is reported on regarding bowel, bladder, sexual, or autonomic function, so we have no idea what the affect of ch'ase was on these animals in this study.
    This paper presents evidence that ch'ase can play a role in restoring function after certain types of SCIs, and this evidence should be taken seriously. However, this paper does NOT present rats that have been cured of their spinal cord injuries, which is exactly how you presented it to me and everyone else.

    I don't appear to be the one who needs to improve my literacy when it comes to scientific papers. If you wish to continue having a discussion about this issue and can act like an adult, then by all means lets continue having it, because I actually agree with you about some things - we need more human trials because animal trials can only go so far in their applicability to humans. However, if you're just going to act like an angry 13-year-old who feels the need to "go to town" on people just because they have a different opinion than you and can back it up, then consider this my last post on the subject.

    In closing, I'd like to point out that Liz Bradbury, one of the authors on the paper you posted a link to, works for Spinal Research in the UK and has a strain of ch'ase ready to go for human trials. Do you know why she hasn't started the trial yet? The UK regulatory agencies WON'T LET HER until the results from the dog trial that this thread is about are published! She literally has her hands tied by the LAW. Were this trial not happening, she wouldn't be able to have her ch'ase at the ready. I'm sure you already knew that though, because if I'm so new to all this, then Liz Bradbury's plans must be common knowledge.

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