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Thread: ZX-1 Power Add-on owners thread

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by pattherat View Post
    The retail price for something like this is not really cost driven anyway it's loosely based on what similar products are selling for.
    the DME industry drives me crazy at times.

  2. #202
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    Pat did not say it in those words. I am trying to condense different things that were written in many posts. I am hoping that Pat will let me know if my understanding is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by robotnik View Post
    I'm not sure to understand you here ! Where did you find those posts about ZX-1 COG, may be I can help, but I must read before. I was thinking I've read most of the posts about ZX-1, but I can't remember those...
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    Pat did not say it in those words. I am trying to condense different things that were written in many posts. I am hoping that Pat will let me know if my understanding is correct.
    The ZX-1 and COG, let me try to explain it a little better. The less COG you have, the more forward your body(weight) is in front of the camber tube which is what the ZX-1 attaches to. The camber tube can still rotate in the ZX-1 clamshell after it is attached as when you lean back into a wheelie or when the front casters go over an obstacle or start up a ramp. In those situations ZX-1 still has its drive wheels and it's trailing rear caster on the ground. This is how it needs to function and it should do this fairly easily. if the ZX-1 was rigidly attached to your chair, you would have a vehicle with three wheels in a row and if you tried to say go up a ramp the middle wheels would be lifted off the ground. Since these are the drive wheels on the ZX-1, you wouldn't get very far. So the less COG, the harder it is to raise your front casters because your weight is forward of camber tube. Now the opposite unwanted affect of having the middle drive wheels hingeably attached is having the rear trailing caster come up off the ground while the ZX-1's drive wheels and the manual wheelchair's front casters are still on the ground. This can happen when going down a hill and stopping abruptly and also backing up a hill fast. Since the armrests and joystick are attached to the ZX-1, they will dip down. This is caused by the momentum of the users weight being thrust forward over the hinged joint (clamshell/cambertube coupling) and the fact that the clamshell is directly above the drive wheels. The less COG, the more likely this is to occur. The anti-tilts all but eliminate this if they are setup correctly for the user. This could probably be solved better by having at least one forward caster that stays on the ground but is allowed to raise up over obstacles like many of the mid-wheel drive 6 wheel chairs do. I hope that helps. I think if you can get at least 3" of COG it will function better.

    Elarson could you post side pics of your armrest brackets while in the ZX-1?

  4. #204
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    Thanks for you explanation of the ZX-1 and COG. I need to process that a bit.

    I'll post photo's over the weekend with my husband in the ZX-1.

    I really appreciate your help. I really want to get the ZX-1 working the best we can given our limitations with the chair armrest brackets.

    Quote Originally Posted by pattherat View Post
    The ZX-1 and COG....

    Elarson could you post side pics of your armrest brackets while in the ZX-1?
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  5. #205
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    I hope these photo's will work. My flash isn't working and there was a bad storm so we could not go out side. Let me know if you need better photo's, and I'll re-do them tomorrow.

    The photo's show my husband in his ZRA with 3" COG and the ZX-1 set at 4" COG. I'd appreaciate any idea's you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by pattherat View Post
    Elarson could you post side pics of your armrest brackets while in the ZX-1?
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    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  6. #206
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    I could not get better photo’s with my husband in the ZX-1 today (logistics problems), but on the suggestion of Robotnik who PM’d me, I made a photo without the wheel and also did a test.

    This photo is of the ZX-1 with the armrest bracket/COG set to 4” and the ZRA COG set to 3”. The problem is that the ZRA armrest bracket makes contact with the ZX-1 armrest on any type of incline or getting over curbs.
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    This photo is with the ZX-1 armrest in the ZRA armrest bracket. I wanted to test this after mentioning it in post #191. I had thought this would cause the chair to spin on the clamshell. It seemed to work okay, and the force of my body weight kept it from spinning (Newton's second law). It also made it so that the armrests did not lower going down a ramp or raise going up a ramp.

    I would need to remove the ZX-1 armrest bracket, but that looks doable. I would also need to find a way to make the armrests fixed (not swinging around) in the ZRA brackets. I don’t think it would be difficult -- add an arm stop and hole in the ZX-1 armrest (part 4 in the drawing in post #191).

    I think there will be others who need armrest brackets on their wheelchair, and unless Pat says there are reasons not to do this, it might just work. I’d love to hear any input.

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    Note: The equipment to the right is a RioMobility Firefly hanging on the wall, even though it looks like it might be on the chair. The equipment on the left is a very inquisitive Jack Russell named Jane, and my trusted assistant (her favourite hobby is to eat small parts while I'm working on the chair ).
    Last edited by elarson; 03-30-2015 at 06:09 PM.
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  7. #207
    I think you've solved it.
    I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

  8. #208
    That may work ok as long as you leave the anti-tilt mechanisms in place. The armrests on a ZX-1 originally acted as its only means of anti-tip as they would hit the backrest and stop the chair from flipping too far. Without them them manual chair could flip all the way backwards. The other problem is it will be harder to line up when backing in to engage the ZX-1 and then you'd have to reach down and pick up the armrests off the floor? So be carefull using the anti-tilts as the only means of anti-tip or figure some other backup way to stop the chair from flipping backwards. You only need the front casters of the manual chair to raise 2 to 3 inches max off the ground. Yes that does solve the armrest from dipping but you lose the ability of quickly engaging and disengaging from the ZX-1.

  9. #209
    Senior Member robotnik's Avatar
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    wow ! this plunge in Newton's brain is terrific !
    Your pict looks very interesting... You may have to cut a bit the lower part of the ZX-1 armrest or to set it's heigth very precisely, but it seems do-able.
    Of course, hooking the ZX-1 is going to be more difficult without it's armrests. But I can imagine you are going to swap between them, and as the joystick is wired on, i think the best place to put the ZX-1 armrest when not in use is? on the ZX-1 itself !
    So we can see this scenario :
    - separate use : the ZRA has its armrests, and the ZX-1 has its ones.
    - hooking the ZX-1, after removing the ZRA's armrests (you may have to find them a place), using the ZX-1 armrests as guide, then placing them in the ZRA's brackets,
    - unhooking, and then giving their initial place to all these armrests !
    The main interest IMO, is that Rob is going to drive his ZX-1 with a non dipping joystick. According to what I've read, and my (very small) experience, it's a major help for persons with limited hand functions.
    PS: Kiss Jane for me !
    Last edited by robotnik; 03-31-2015 at 05:55 PM.
    C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
    my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
    Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

  10. #210
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    Pat -- Thank you so much for your well thought out reply. I hope I am finally "getting it" about the ZX-1 armrest/COG setting. Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

    Robotnik -- you summed it up well (and I gave Jane a kiss for you).

    Earlier I thought the ZX-1 armrest/COG setting was necessary for distributing weight/force on the ZX-1. As I understand it now, armrest/COG setting is to stop the chair from tipping too far backwards with the anti-tilt mechanism and the armrest bracket as a backup anti-tip. It's the clamshell, COG on the wheelchair, and user that determines the distribution of weight/force on the ZX-1 (is that right?).

    My husband and I talked it over, and we think the priorities in order are: 1) being able to use the ZRA swing-away armrests; 2) having the ZX-1 functioning safely even if there is some compromise of functionality; 3) having the ability to engage and disengage with assistance.

    As it is now, he needs help with engaging to the ZX-1, but he can often disengage without much help. Although it is our hope that someday he may be able to use it independently, the reality is that he almost always has assistance due to not being able to see and coordinate because of vision and functional deficits.

    We've weighed up all the options based on my current understanding, which I hope I got right. I'm going to include it all here, so that I remember and also for others who might have a similar situation with needing armrests/brackets on their chair. I would also be very appreciative for any more input anyone has.

    I've tested what I can test fairly easily, but ideally I would like to be able to test all of the options before making a final decision. I tried to make some better photo's with my husband in the chair. The photo's show the ZX-1 armrest bracket set to 4" and the ZRA COG set to 3". The first photo shows the ZX-1 armrest in the ZX-1 armrest bracket. The Second photo shows the he ZX-1 armrest in the ZRA armrest bracket.The red arrows show the contact points and when they happen.

    Note:
    I had a hard time with loading images, but I think if you click on them they will take you to our website with larger versions.



    1) Use the ZX-1 armrests and ZX-1 armrest brackets.
    Keep the ZX-1 armrest brackets and the anti-tilt mechanism to keep the chair from tipping too far backwards. We will move the COG on the ZX-1 to have the anti-tilt mechanism at the optimal setting of 3" to match the 3" COG on the ZRA. The ZX-1 armrest brackets will be moved back to 5" to be used as a backup anti-tip. We would do this with an extra set of ZX-1 armrest bracket nuts, washers, and bolts.

    Assumptions:
    We are assuming that there are no reasons not to mount the armrest brackets separate from the anti-tilt bracket. We are assuming that the anti-tilt mechanism set correctly to the COG on the ZX-1 at 3" and the ZX-1 armrest brackets moved back to 5" there may be enough clearance to raise the front casters.

    Pros:
    Will not lose the anti-tilt mechanism or the ZX-1 armrest brackets as a backup anti-tip . We only need an extra set of ZX-1 armrest bracket nuts, washers, and bolts.

    Cons:
    Will restrict the amount we will be able to raise the front casters off the ground for curbs and make it more difficult when going up inclines. May cause damage to the ZX-1 armrests over time, because the ZRA armrest bracket hits it.

    Parts needed:


    • ZX-1 armrest bracket nuts, washers, and bolts (need to determine sizes)


    2) Use the ZX-1 armrests and fit them to the ZRA armrest brackets.
    Keep the ZX-1 the anti-tilt mechanism to keep the chair from tipping too far backwards. We will move the COG on the ZX-1 to have the anti-tilt mechanism at the optimal setting of 3" to match the 3" COG on the ZRA. The ZX-1 armrest brackets will be moved back to 5", but will no longer be used as a backup anti-tip because the ZRA armrests would no longer come in contact with it. We would do this with an extra set of ZX-1 armrest bracket nuts, washers, and bolts.

    The ZX-1 armrests will need to be modified to add arm stops with arm screws/washers and through holes. We will leave the ZX-1 armrests extending below the ZRA armrest brackets unless they interfere with declines because of making contact with the ZX-1 armrest brackets, in which case they will need to be cut-off, making it more difficult to engage. When using the ZX-1 the armrests will be moved to the ZRA armrest brackets after engaging with the ZX-1. When not being used, the armrests will be stored on the ZX-1.

    Assumptions:
    We are assuming that there are no reasons not to mount the armrest brackets separate from the anti-tilt bracket. With using the anti-tilts as the only means of anti-tip we may need to figure some other backup way to stop the chair from flipping backwards. We may need to experiment with the placement of the joystick cable so there is enough slack to move it to the ZRA armrest brackets with the shroud on.

    Pros:
    Will be able to engage/disengage with the ZX-1 armrests in the ZX-1 armrest brackets. Will not restrict the amount we will be able to raise the front casters off the ground for curbs. Will not lose the anti-tilt mechanism. The armrests will not lower going down a ramp or raise going up a ramp. We already have the ZX-1 armrests and the addition of the ZRA armrest stops will still allow them to be used in the ZX-1 armrest brackets.

    Cons:
    The ZX-1 armrest brackets will no longer be used as a backup anti-tip Will need to move the ZX-1 armrests to the ZRA armrest brackets after engaging and move them back to the ZX-1 when disengaging. Because of the bend on the ZX-1 armrests the ZRA arm stop will will be over an inch higher, but we do not think this will cause any problems.

    Parts needed:


    • CP104306 Arm Stop
    • CP104320 Arm Screw (1 3/8 with 5/32 hex head with about .25" thread at bottom)
    • HD100272 1/4" High Collar Split Lock Washer
    • ZX-1 armrest bracket nuts, washers, and bolts (need to determine sizes)



    3) Use one ZRA armrest and fit the ZX-1 joystick to it. This is the same for everything as mentioned in option 2) Use the ZX-1 armrests and fit them to the ZRA armrest brackets, except only one ZRA armrest will need to be modified to add a detent hole for the ZX-1 Armrest extensions and the foam will need to be cut out of the front of the ZRA armrest. Because the armrest will not extend below the ZRA armrest bracket it may be more difficult to engage/disengage because it will be about 3.75" lower on the ZX-1.

    Parts needed:


    • CP104306 Arm Stop
    • CP104320 Arm Screw (1 3/8 with 5/32 hex head with about .25" thread at bottom)
    • HD100272 1/4" High Collar Split Lock Washer
    • ZX-1 armrest bracket nuts, washers, and bolts (need to determine sizes)
    • CP102074 Swing Away Armrest Tube Short 7 3/4 x 10 3/4 Right
    • HD100112 Foam Grip for 1" Tubing, .940 I.D. x .125 Wall x 12" Long



    Note: If anyone has spare swing-away armrests and/or arm stops and would be willing to send them to us in the Netherlands, we would be very grateful. It does not matter how worn they are, as long as they are usable. The armrests and arm stops appear to be the same on the TR Series 3, ZRA Series 2, ZR Series 2, TRA Series 2 and AERO Z Series 2, AERO T. Please PM me if you have some spares and let me know what the cost would be. I can sort out shipping for them from this side. I've also posted this in Equipment & Services forum (see post #1). I can probably find the ZX-1 armrest bracket fastners locally and hopefully can swap with metric sizes and shorter screws.

    ZX-1 and ZRA armrest comparison


    In case anyone is interested, this is a comparison between the ZX-1 and ZRA armrests. This photo shows the ZX-1 Armrest (top) with the Arm Stop moved from the ZRA Armrest (bottom).





    • Both the ZX-1 and ZRA armrests have what appears to be a 1" outside diameter, and the inside diameter appears to be the same on both.
    • The ZRA armrests have a 15.5" length and 11.8" height. The ZX-1 armrests have about a 14.75" length and about a 16.4" height.
    • The ZRA armrests have about .75" more length than the ZX-1 armrests. With the ZX-1 armrest extensions the ZX-1 armrests have about 3.5" more length than the ZRA armrests.
    • The ZX-1 armrests have about 4.6" more height than the ZRA armrests and a .75" end cap to fit in the armrest bracket. The extra height is needed because the ZX-1 armrest brackets are much lower than the ZRA's mounted at the seat frame. They have a bend that will limit the placement of the ZRA arm stop and make them higher..
    • The ZRA armrests have an Arm Stop to fit in the armrest bracket. The through holes in the armrest are about .25" (6.5 mm).
    • The ZX-1 armrests have a detent hole about 1" from the end of the armrest.
    Last edited by elarson; 04-02-2015 at 10:41 AM. Reason: fixing typos, and fixed parts for option 3)
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

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