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Thread: Suicide

  1. #41
    I'm here. i am not insane and i see this as end of life. It is not ill conceived long term solution to short term problem.

    All the "solutions/options" have been tried.

    It is also not not imminent. I have promises to keep and miles to go before i sleep.

    I think this is a topic worthy of discussion.

    I see a shrink, docs, spiritual/guide, minister. I don' t need half assed, but well meaning suggestions. it is like just will youself to walk.

    You are friends and like family and trust we can have meaningful conversation.

    Thank you for the respect and concern fro most of you and honest opinions from others, I hope you don't find youself in my situation

    Respectfully,

    Ket

  2. #42
    Senior Member NikkiMaya's Avatar
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    I am throwing my hat in the ring with those saying that this is a discussion that needs to be had and be heard.

    I work on a crisis hotline for people affected by sexual violence. Our hotline gets calls from people who are suicidal and when this happens, advocates have to operate just like volunteers on suicide hotlines. We assess everyone periodically throughout the call for ideation, and there have been a few instances where I had to dispatch police to someone's residence. However, in my experience, it seems that most people just want a chance to express themselves and be heard.

    Advocates are trained to facilitate conversations, but I have been struck by how often there is a stream-of-consciousness monologue from the suicidal caller who is in such emotional distress. Typically, the caller does not want a solution or suggestion, just the chance to speak their truth and receive some validation. When the call winds down and everything has been said, the caller's problems are not over, but it seems that there is often a feeling of catharsis and a sense that they can make it through to another day.

    I think we are seeing a bit of that playing out here in this thread. Reading posts is not always the best indicator, but no one here expressed active suicidal intent. People communicated a desire to be listened to and validated, to feel a sense to community. Some people said that after reading or posting, they found renewed strength to continue living. I didn't hear anyone mention that these posts made them feel suicidal, which I think is worth noting.

    Many people do not have a family member, friend or therapist that they can discuss suicide with or if they do, the discussion often gets burnt out quickly or leaves the person feeling misunderstood or silenced. I think we should respect people who are here saying that this is an effective forum for them to communicate about this very sensitive subject. Some guidelines have already been established and people are adhering to them. A hotline number has been posted and is available 24/7 for people requiring more than peer dialogue.

    Finally, I want to say that I appreciate everyone's honesty, concern, and respect for each other. The bravery it takes to come forward when you are coping with depression, thoughts of suicide, chronic pain, and other issues cannot be overstated. I know what it feels like to be suicidal and to act on those feelings. None of us deserve this pain, only support and compassion.
    In our world constituted of differences of all kinds, it is not the disabled, but society at large that needs special education...to become a genuine society for all. -Frederic Major, Former UNESCO Director General

  3. #43
    Senior Member NikkiMaya's Avatar
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    I thought it might be helpful to post this list from my training manual at the crisis center. It is from a short guide called "Understanding and Helping the Suicidal Person." I am not trying to lecture anyone in this thread, just post some information that might be pertinent to anyone looking for ways to support someone trying to cope with suicidal ideation.

    *Be direct. Talk openly and matter-of-factly about suicide.

    *Be willing to listen. Allow expressions of feelings. Accept the feelings.

    *Be nonjudgmental. Don't debate whether suicide is right or wrong or whether feelings are good or bad. Don't lecture on the value of life.

    *Get involved. Become available. Show interest and support.

    *Don't dare him or her to do it.

    *Don't act shocked. This will put distance between you.

    *Don't be sworn to secrecy. Seek support.

    *Offer hope that alternatives are available but do not offer glib reassurances.
    In our world constituted of differences of all kinds, it is not the disabled, but society at large that needs special education...to become a genuine society for all. -Frederic Major, Former UNESCO Director General

  4. #44
    Senior Member Foolish Old's Avatar
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    We seem to be having two parallel conversations traveling in different directions, yet implying that there is a point of intersection. I'd like to ask a few questions and make a few comments to help clarify my understanding of what is being said.

    Suicide v. end of life

    To me, "end of life" is that time when a skilled medical evaluation says that our hearts have a very limited time left to beat or that our brain activity is so minimal that the body exists without a mind. This is a crude explanation, but I don't want to quibble on semantics. This is not an academic argument. To me, E.O.L. doesn't mean that we no longer enjoy our life, find it too difficult and unrewarding, too painful - or any other reason we wish to stop living years before we have no choice of life.

    To me, suicide means killing one's self. In most parts of the United States this self-killing is the crime of murder.

    Don't think that I'm imposing judgment on suicide by those capable of continuing life for years. I'm not. But I do see self-killing as quite distinct from the current understanding of end of life care.

    So, back to the Care Cure Community and the choice of life or suicide. Is the Community about finding a way to live with the challenges of disability and lessening their impact? Or do we also want to explore the option of planned death as a response to painful and debilitating disability?

    I'm not talking about people who express suicidal thoughts and those who would attempt to dissuade them from taking their life. I'm talking about a conversation that says that Care Cure Community supports self-killing as one rational and viable option to S.C.I.

    Are we willing to embrace the decision of fellow members without making every attempt to stop that self-killing. Can we become convinced that they are making a personal choice that we not only respect but SUPPORT? If you know their intent and location, do you call the police? Or do you say Godspeed and I hope you find peace?

    I'm sincere in this question. I do believe this is a personal decision. I don't judge anyone, no matter what their choice. But I do think that there are implications for this community that have the potential to alter the course and the mission. I'd like some clarity in just what positions are being advanced. I do think that everyone is sincere and thoughtful. Yet I don't think that the positions are clear.
    Foolish

    "We have met the enemy and he is us."-POGO.

    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."~Edgar Allan Poe

    "Dream big, you might never wake up!"- Snoop Dogg

  5. #45
    I respect your point of view Foolish, i have opened this and not gone far until we as a community decide.

    And i hope we continue to treat this honestly openly and respectfully.

    If medical technology keeps me alive, and without it I would soon expire, where does the advancement of science over weigh nature. 5-10 minutes later in SE Asia, and this would have been a moot point.

    again, i think that some of this is circumstance and perhaps I ride the line of situational ethics?

    I will post a conversation from my minister/spiritual guide, no time now and want to be thorough and even not interjecting my bias.

    Kindly,

    Ket

  6. #46
    Suicide attempts are almost always precipitate actions that occur when a person undergoes intolerable stress and anguish. Suicide intervention is so very successful because if the person obtains help and support to get them through that crucial time, suicide no longer is an attractive alternative.

    No matter how well-intentioned, the internet and this forum are not appropriate to provide the help to get someone through that particular crisis. I would be very worried that this thread can be easily accessed by anyone in crises. Unless someone is a member of CC, it would be easy to view Bill's or others posts and anguish and misinterpret them as broadly legitimizing suicide. Non-members would not know the context or the history of these thoughts about and contemplation of suicide.


    I offer the respectfull opinion that this thread should be moved to Members only. All opinions could be voiced there without worry that a despondent teenager doing a google search late at night on suicide finds this thread and misinterprets it.

  7. #47
    Senior Member DaleB's Avatar
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    I cant help but think what is or isn't appropriate conversation on the CC server isn't an end user decision, any more than whether those same servers are even turned on any given day.

    I've rarely participated in suicide threads, except maybe one or two related to people I knew pre-SCI, that also found their way to CC (RIP Ozy). This is largely due to my lack of respect for the action and utter contempt for its ideation, as an expression of desperation.

    I'm really glad there are crisis counselors out there. God bless them.

    Me?

    I think there are too many people on Earth already, much less ones that don't want to be.

    And, this is the LAST opinion I think anyone should have pushed at them during a crisis.

    But, an appeal to an anonymous web forum re: suicide is going to cause this to happen, especially an appeal seeking honest dialogue.

    Anyway, the CC mission is clear to me, and posted on the Home page, authored by its owners, whom I respect. Doesn't include suicide inspiring, enabling, or prevention services, and for good reason, IMO.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
    I cant help but think what is or isn't appropriate conversation on the CC server isn't an end user decision, any more than whether those same servers are even turned on any given day.

    I've rarely participated in suicide threads, except maybe one or two related to people I knew pre-SCI, that also found their way to CC (RIP Ozy). This is largely due to my lack of respect for the action and utter contempt for its ideation, as an expression of desperation.

    I'm really glad there are crisis counselors out there. God bless them.

    Me?

    I think there are too many people on Earth already, much less ones that don't want to be.

    And, this is the LAST opinion I think anyone should have pushed at them during a crisis.

    But, an appeal to an anonymous web forum re: suicide is going to cause this to happen, especially an appeal seeking honest dialogue.

    Anyway, the CC mission is clear to me, and posted on the Home page, authored by its owners, whom I respect. Doesn't include suicide inspiring, enabling, or prevention services, and for good reason, IMO.
    I agree.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolish Old View Post
    We seem to be having two parallel conversations traveling in different directions, yet implying that there is a point of intersection. I'd like to ask a few questions and make a few comments to help clarify my understanding of what is being said.

    Suicide v. end of life

    To me, "end of life" is that time when a skilled medical evaluation says that our hearts have a very limited time left to beat or that our brain activity is so minimal that the body exists without a mind. This is a crude explanation, but I don't want to quibble on semantics. This is not an academic argument. To me, E.O.L. doesn't mean that we no longer enjoy our life, find it too difficult and unrewarding, too painful - or any other reason we wish to stop living years before we have no choice of life.

    To me, suicide means killing one's self. In most parts of the United States this self-killing is the crime of murder.

    Don't think that I'm imposing judgment on suicide by those capable of continuing life for years. I'm not. But I do see self-killing as quite distinct from the current understanding of end of life care.

    So, back to the Care Cure Community and the choice of life or suicide. Is the Community about finding a way to live with the challenges of disability and lessening their impact? Or do we also want to explore the option of planned death as a response to painful and debilitating disability?

    I'm not talking about people who express suicidal thoughts and those who would attempt to dissuade them from taking their life. I'm talking about a conversation that says that Care Cure Community supports self-killing as one rational and viable option to S.C.I.

    Are we willing to embrace the decision of fellow members without making every attempt to stop that self-killing. Can we become convinced that they are making a personal choice that we not only respect but SUPPORT? If you know their intent and location, do you call the police? Or do you say Godspeed and I hope you find peace?

    I'm sincere in this question. I do believe this is a personal decision. I don't judge anyone, no matter what their choice. But I do think that there are implications for this community that have the potential to alter the course and the mission. I'd like some clarity in just what positions are being advanced. I do think that everyone is sincere and thoughtful. Yet I don't think that the positions are clear.
    so i am only speaking in reference to ket as he presents a classic case of what the difference between end of life care and suicide(i've already given my definitions for both) he's spoken with his medical team (who has told him that this last treatment is a crap shoot and after that nothing more can be tried), his spiritual advisors have counseled him, his psych person has counseled him AND he protested that he still has a lot he wants to do and will do those things.

    that is VASTLY different than a person in need of a crisis hotline. in the case of someone like that, it is easy to tell what sort of state they are in via their language and yes by all means talk them down, tell them to use the hotlines available, and if you know where they are, call the police.
    "Smells like death in a bucket of chicken!"
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by peterf View Post
    We ve all been in that situation it will get better believe me.
    Peter, that's impossible to promise. Many of these people have been suffering for over 20 years with the same issues. Gets better? This isn't a break-up or losing a job.

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