new wheelchair users: do NOT buy the invacare top end reveal

[lacesoutvic]

So question: if a TiLite user or a Quickie user breaks a camber tube what are the possible vendor options they have to choose from for a replacement? Are there many? I don't know. Or are you talking about the used market like on eBay? I always thought that a TiLite chair would need a TiLite tube, etc... I wouldn't think of buying a Quickie tube for a TiLite chair. So what's so bad about having to buy one from Invacare?

don't be so narrow-minded.

used market like carecure/apparelyzed/ebay. or other brands entirely, if i believed them to be superior or less expensive; any reason, really.

the bad part about buying direct, for my case in particular, is that i cannot use that particular camber tube on ANY other model of chair that i am aware of. it seems that 1.25" is the standard diameter - if anything, invacare would save money by having the reveal designed for standard camber tubes.

[SCI_OTR]

...but with the cost of a custom chair you might as well get something better and less proprietary. let's say i broke my camber tube, then i would have no option but buy a brand new one from invacare because of the off-size.

Many times, components from different manufacturers appear to be identical. It is easy to assume that they should be interchangeable and, too often, we discover the hard way that there are subtle differences that prevent them from being interchangeable.

There is no standardized camber tube diameter. In cases where the camber tube is the same diameter, there is no guarantee the axle sleeves in the camber plugs are the same length.

The lack of compatibility not only applies to camber tubes, it can apply to things like forks, wheels, axles, side guards, wheel lock clamps, and anti-tippers.

No custom ultralight manufacturer uses components that were intentionally designed to be compatible with those produced by another manufacturer. You could have gotten any 17" wide rigid frame designed with a single camber tube and encountered the same thing. You just happened to get an Invacare Top End Reveal. Telling others not to buy a Reveal based on what you discovered really isn't sound advice.

[lacesoutvic]

Many times, components from different manufacturers appear to be identical. It is easy to assume that they should be interchangeable and, too often, we discover the hard way that there are subtle differences that prevent them from being interchangeable.

There is no standardized camber tube diameter. In cases where the camber tube is the same diameter, there is no guarantee the axle sleeves in the camber plugs are the same length.

The lack of compatibility not only applies to camber tubes, it can apply to things like forks, wheels, axles, side guards, wheel lock clamps, and anti-tippers.

No custom ultralight manufacturer uses components that were intentionally designed to be compatible with those produced by another manufacturer. You could have gotten any 17" wide rigid frame designed with a single camber tube and encountered the same thing. You just happened to get an Invacare Top End Reveal. Telling others not to buy a Reveal based on what you discovered really isn't sound advice.

fair enough, i was unfair in deterring people from a particular product based on my specific needs.

but from what i've seen, wheel sizes, fork width/casters, and lock clamps are "standardized." there may be some outliers. axles come in different sizes to accomodate different hub widths, every company has their own side guards, i get it - not everything is standard. but it's undeniable that 1.25" is a common caster tube diameter. and i have a right to be upset.

[SCI_OTR]

fair enough, i was unfair in deterring people from a particular product based on my specific needs.

but from what i've seen, wheel sizes, fork width/casters, and lock clamps are "standardized." there may be some outliers. axles come in different sizes to accomodate different hub widths, every company has their own side guards, i get it - not everything is standard. but it's undeniable that 1.25" is a common caster tube diameter. and i have a right to be upset.

You can't use a 1.25" diameter camber tube on a T7A, A4, Terminator, any Colours model. Furthermore, failure of an aluminum or titanium camber tube failure rarely occurs and is something that would likely be covered under warranty.

On the other hand, manufacturers could make our lives a little easier if items that commonly need to be replaced were designed to be interchangeable. If caster bearings, bearing fork specifications, lengths of QR axle/axle sleeves, and rear wheel bearing spacing were universal, it would cost less to perform routine maintenance or upgrade common components. That complaint is more-legitimate and applies to just about every manufacturer.

There are oftentimes, legitimate reasons manufacturers make changes. The Reveal and T7A happen to use the same camber tube. If you refer to the table below, you'll see that the smaller OD makes it lighter than the 1.25 camber tube that was used on the T6A, and is still used on the cantilevered Crossfire models and Q7. In the case of the Reveal, this OD was selected to is to keep the weight as low as possible (consider that the equivalent camber tube with a 1.25" diameter is not only heavier, the clamps designed to mount it would also be heavier because they would need to be larger).

[lacesoutvic]

If caster bearings, bearing fork specifications, lengths of QR axle/axle sleeves, and rear wheel bearing spacing were universal, it would cost less to perform routine maintenance or upgrade common components. That complaint is more-legitimate and applies to just about every manufacturer.

608 bearings are standard. i know tilite has r6 bearings now, but that wasn't a necessary move. if you look at skate trucks/bearings (99.9% of which are 608 also), not many people adopted 10mm axles and bearings over 8mm - a strong 8mm axle won't bend. /tangent

i imagine the fork bearings and axle/sleeve lengths would be a bigger concern.

anyway, my plan was to either get some new brackets machined or to just buy a tube from invacare. we'll see, i have to wait on my seatpan to arrive anyway.

[SCI_OTR]

608 bearings are standard. i know tilite has r8 bearings now, but that wasn't a necessary move. if you look at skate trucks/bearings (99.9% of which are 608 also), not many people adopted 10mm axles and bearings over 8mm - a strong 8mm axle won't bend. /tangent

i imagine the fork bearings and axle/sleeve lengths would be a bigger concern.

anyway, my plan was to either get some new brackets machined or to just buy a tube from invacare. we'll see, i have to wait on my seatpan to arrive anyway.

608's were standard. TiLite's switch to the R6 bearing is more an example of vendor lock-in than it is an example of a significant performance improvement.

A used 16" wide T7A camber tube may not be hard to find.

[lacesoutvic]

608's were standard.

what is there besides 608 and r6?

[The_Wheel_Life]

Getting back to the original issue... You shouldn't need to machine entirely new brackets to fit a 1.25 camber tube. Would it be feasible to just re-machine the existing brackets? Sounds like we're only looking at an extra .125". I'm guessing there would be enough material to get it done. Another option would just be to shorten the camber tube. That could be done a couple different ways. I have machining capabilities at home. Maybe I can help!

[SCI_OTR]

TiLite uses the R6 bearing with their current line of aluminum hub casters.

That means they need to be replaced with another TiLite aluminum caster with the SlipStream fork. On a bearing fork, you need to swap caster axles and the asymmetric caster axle spacers if you want to replace it with a FLAHSR*. The FLAHSR is definitely the better value and easier to purchase.

In fact, upgrading from a TiLite's own poly caster to their LiteSpeed casters won't be possible without also buying different caster axles and spacers because of the R6 bearing.

Casters inevitably need to be replaced, and this is one situation where I think end users have a very legitimate complaint about the lack of aftermarket compatibility.

• I'm not certain an R6 version of the FLAHSR is still available. It no longer appears on the Sportaid or FrogLegs web sites.
  
  If it was discontinued, it is conceivable that TiLite is responsible. They are currently the only manufacturer using an R6 bearing and their SlipStream fork is patented. An R6 FLAHSR could be interpreted as a product specifically manufactured for a patented design. I'm not sure what the legal/licensing ramifications might be, but FrogLegs may have needed permission to sell it.
  
  While that is purely conjecture on my part, I don't think it can be dismissed as merely conspiracy theory.

[Essie]

It's not like someone gave you a free Hall's Hallmark that isn't exactly your size and nothing is lost by trying to modify it.

Shame on you. Even slight damage to the Hallmark would outweigh the complete destruction of the Reveal.