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Thread: Why do I need an icon??

  1. #21
    Senior Member ~Lin's Avatar
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    Adjustable on the fly back angle was the single most important thing to me before I picked and ordered a chair, and has proved to be the most important thing for me in use. I'm adjusting it nonstop when in the chair, only time I'm not adjusting it is while I'm pushing. And I only have 3 selections I use with my Q7, I imagine with the infinite adjustability of the Icon I'd be able to spend even longer in my chair before having to go lay down in bed.
    Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

    I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by IsMaisin View Post
    It takes longer than adjusting the camber because you have to match the two sides to each other. I like to use a level, but then I'm a nit-picker. Once I find my "perfect" settings, I will scratch a small mark where the bottom of the clamp goes to make it easy for me to require my setting.
    I use a piece of string Very low tech but I have zoomed down hills at a fair velocity with nary a wobble so I am sure I have it dialed in.

  3. #23
    Thought I'd mention a couple other high end custom fixed frame chairs... Mike Box and Lasher.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by -scott- View Post
    You can, similar in concept to Lasher's BT-X.

    Icon has made the "adjustability vs. no adjustability" discussion an issue of preference instead of "newbie vs. professional." Not everyone recognizes that.

    People buy automobiles that have tons of flexibility, various seating/storage configurations, winter vs. summer wheels/tires, etc. Some people buy cars that have zero flexibility, fixed seats, and specific purposes. It's all about what someone finds beneficial.
    One difference between automobiles and wheelchairs, is that adjusting the seating in most automobiles can be done quickly and easily.

    I believe the full potential with respect to the Icon's adjustability will not be realized until adjustments can be done "on the fly" (i.e. while sitting in the chair without tools).

    Although he hasn't posted here for awhile, both maestro (Designer of the Elevation and owner of Instinct Mobility) and I refer to this concept as Dynamic Wheeled Mobility.

    Dynamic Wheeled Mobility refers to the ability to quickly and easily reconfigure one's chair for specific tasks or environments of use. t8burst provided an excellent example of this concept being put into practice. Features designed specifically with Dynamic Wheeled Mobility in mind can enable the user to adjust their positioning for maximal function in different activities, change their handling characteristics to provide either more-efficient propulsion or better stability in a given environment, or change the footprint of the chair to minimize transfer gaps or accessibility issues.

    I've discussed this previously with respect to the Icon. and have since even modified one of Jeff's early production demos as "proof of concept" by replacing a couple of adjustment screws with quick release knobs, adding safety stops, and reducing friction between components. While I do not recommend trying this on one's personal chair, I was able to adapt the demo so the seat pan could be moved on the tracks and I could adjust the telescoping front end while sitting in the chair.

    I discovered the ability to use various combinations of COG and wheelbase did improve my ability propel in different environments and use wheelies more-functionally. It is much easier to get over an obstacle in a chair that has a relatively long wheelbase with a COG that distributes very little weight over the front casters. An Icon in that configuration will have its front end extended and seat pan nearly all the way back. While it takes minimal effort to lift the casters off the ground, they won't lift as high as they would with a shorter wheelbase preventing it from being rear-tippy. When having to get over a curb or obstacle, the extra distance between the casters and wheels also makes it easier to time one's push to generate when the casters have cleared.

    Of course, an Icon in that configuration would be very long--increasing the chances of encountering accessibility issues. It would also be one of the most difficult configurations for transfers that I can think of. With the demo that I modified, however, I had the ability to make the Icon nearly optimal for transfers. I could bring the telescoping front end in to shorten the wheelbase by gently pushing up against the wall . I could then loosen the knobs I added to the seat pan and bring the seat pan all the way forward which minimized the transfer gap. Again, I must stress that I added safety stops to prevent these components from coming completely out. There is a serious risk of injury should this occur.

    To optimize Dynamic Wheeled Mobility on a production Icon, some components would need to be redesigned so that they could withstand repeated adjustments. Wheel locks could not be mounted to the frame with a sliding seat pan, so a basic hub lock would need to be incorporated to secure the chair in order to extend/retract the front end or slide the seat pan. In order to be able to access the hub lock and prevent rotational flex the rear wheels would need to use a limited number of solid spokes (e.g. Round Betty Dino's). The hub lock/rear wheel combination is critical because the force required to telescope the front end or move the seat pan will come from either the end user's trunk muscles or their ability to pull /push off of the secured wheel.

    One thing I hadn't figured out was a way to get the shock to lock out when it is compressed. Having the ability to adjust both seat angle and back angle on the fly would allow the Icon to provide good ergonomics for efficient propulsion or working at a desk. I think many people who use their chair for both activities are forced to make compromises because the optimal seating angles for each task are different.

    Not everyone would be able to do these things themselves in such a chair, but a significant number could. My proof of concept exercise convinced me that Dynamic Wheeled Mobility concepts should be incorporated into future designs and that it would be possible to do so without adding an unreasonable amount of additional weight or sacrificing durability.

    Of course, manufacturers, end users, and 3rd party payors would need to understand what this concept means as well as the potential benefits. By writing this lengthy post, I'm just putting the concept out there again for others to think about.


  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    One difference between automobiles and wheelchairs, is that adjusting the seating in most automobiles can be done quickly and easily.
    Depends on the vehicle, but I get your point.

    I believe the full potential with respect to the Icon's adjustability will not be realized until adjustments can be done "on the fly" (i.e. while sitting in the chair without tools).
    Perhaps, but even getting in/out of the chair multiple times while making tweaks to achieve a comfortable fit is rather telling about its potential.

    Although he hasn't posted here for awhile, both maestro (Designer of the Elevation and owner of Instinct Mobility) and I refer to this concept as Dynamic Wheeled Mobility.

    Dynamic Wheeled Mobility refers to the ability to quickly and easily reconfigure one's chair for specific tasks or environments of use. t8burst provided an excellent example of this concept being put into practice. Features designed specifically with Dynamic Wheeled Mobility in mind can enable the user to adjust their positioning for maximal function in different activities, change their handling characteristics to provide either more-efficient propulsion or better stability in a given environment, or change the footprint of the chair to minimize transfer gaps or accessibility issues.

    I've discussed this previously with respect to the Icon. and have since even modified one of Jeff's early production demos as "proof of concept" by replacing a couple of adjustment screws with quick release knobs, adding safety stops, and reducing friction between components. While I do not recommend trying this on one's personal chair, I was able to adapt the demo so the seat pan could be moved on the tracks and I could adjust the telescoping front end while sitting in the chair.

    I discovered the ability to use various combinations of COG and wheelbase did improve my ability propel in different environments and use wheelies more-functionally. It is much easier to get over an obstacle in a chair that has a relatively long wheelbase with a COG that distributes very little weight over the front casters. An Icon in that configuration will have its front end extended and seat pan nearly all the way back. While it takes minimal effort to lift the casters off the ground, they won't lift as high as they would with a shorter wheelbase preventing it from being rear-tippy. When having to get over a curb or obstacle, the extra distance between the casters and wheels also makes it easier to time one's push to generate when the casters have cleared.

    Of course, an Icon in that configuration would be very long--increasing the chances of encountering accessibility issues. It would also be one of the most difficult configurations for transfers that I can think of. With the demo that I modified, however, I had the ability to make the Icon nearly optimal for transfers. I could bring the telescoping front end in to shorten the wheelbase by gently pushing up against the wall . I could then loosen the knobs I added to the seat pan and bring the seat pan all the way forward which minimized the transfer gap. Again, I must stress that I added safety stops to prevent these components from coming completely out. There is a serious risk of injury should this occur.

    To optimize Dynamic Wheeled Mobility on a production Icon, some components would need to be redesigned so that they could withstand repeated adjustments. Wheel locks could not be mounted to the frame with a sliding seat pan, so a basic hub lock would need to be incorporated to secure the chair in order to extend/retract the front end or slide the seat pan. In order to be able to access the hub lock and prevent rotational flex the rear wheels would need to use a limited number of solid spokes (e.g. Round Betty Dino's). The hub lock/rear wheel combination is critical because the force required to telescope the front end or move the seat pan will come from either the end user's trunk muscles or their ability to pull /push off of the secured wheel.

    One thing I hadn't figured out was a way to get the shock to lock out when it is compressed. Having the ability to adjust both seat angle and back angle on the fly would allow the Icon to provide good ergonomics for efficient propulsion or working at a desk. I think many people who use their chair for both activities are forced to make compromises because the optimal seating angles for each task are different.

    Not everyone would be able to do these things themselves in such a chair, but a significant number could. My proof of concept exercise convinced me that Dynamic Wheeled Mobility concepts should be incorporated into future designs and that it would be possible to do so without adding an unreasonable amount of additional weight or sacrificing durability.

    Of course, manufacturers, end users, and 3rd party payors would need to understand what this concept means as well as the potential benefits. By writing this lengthy post, I'm just putting the concept out there again for others to think about.
    How much added weight would you be willing to accept for the extra hardware necessary to make the Icon A1 fully adjustable while sitting in it?

    Out of curiosity, was the Elevation ever FDA approved?

  6. #26
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    I love the idea of Dynamic Wheeled Mobility. There are a lot of potential good uses for it, especially with people who have day-to-day changing needs along with environment and use needs.

    I would like to see the ability to swap out caster wheels with quick releases and easily change the front seat height to accommodate different sizes. Better yet, an on-the-fly pneumatically adjusting caster/tire that would increase/decrease the tire size and pressure so the casters would not need to be swapped out.

    What's really funny is that when we began our wheelchair search a couple of years ago, I just assumed that these features were standard. Wow, was that a rude wake-up call to find that most none of them were.

    Good stuff to think about... thanks for the long post with your ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    ...Dynamic Wheeled Mobility. ... I'm just putting the concept out there again for others to think about.
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by -scott- View Post
    Depends on the vehicle, but I get your point.


    Perhaps, but even getting in/out of the chair multiple times while making tweaks to achieve a comfortable fit is rather telling about its potential.


    How much added weight would you be willing to accept for the extra hardware necessary to make the Icon A1 fully adjustable while sitting in it?

    Out of curiosity, was the Elevation ever FDA approved?
    I think it could be done in an "Icon A2" without adding any weight at all. All the demo A1 needed was a simple "slide bolt" style hub lock that could be clamped to the end of the axle tube and a set of Dino's with a compatible locking ring.

    It's more a matter of making Dynamic Wheeled Mobility a design priority from the outset. A better question would be how much more would people be willing to pay. Production costs would no doubt be higher because some components would need to be upgraded or designed specifically for the chair.

    BTW, I would also include use of detachable "when needed" devices like the SmartDrive, FreeWheel, ZX1, or Icon's prototype off road front end in this category.

    The Elevation is still not available in the US. If it had received FDA approval, I'm sure it would be available from somebody here in the States.


  8. #28
    ThanksSCI_OTRfor your post. I get teased all the time for my special purpose wheelchairs and now that I have the SmartDrive it looks like I am stuck with another. It seems to me there is a market for on the fly adjustibility, but the more expensive chairs except Icon tend to nearly no adjustments.
    I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    I think it could be done in an "Icon A2" without adding any weight at all. All the demo A1 needed was a simple "slide bolt" style hub lock that could be clamped to the end of the axle tube and a set of Dino's with a compatible locking ring.
    The way my mind was going: the ability to adjust seat height and/or seat angle under 150-250# of load would need hardware to counter the forces put on the chair by the user.

  10. #30
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    What are the differences between A1 and A2?

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