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Thread: Muscle Atrophy and "Cures"

  1. #11
    Moderator jody's Avatar
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    frozen joints are another problem. sometimes they get some movement back when they get stronger, but an animal with frozen joints don't regenerate muscle well or get good tone. My theory is the blood supply to the end of the bones, where muscles attatch never get enough bood supply once the movement of the joint is affected.
    so an animal in starvation rehab, trying to grow fat and muscle, is moved by hands, or walked or like with large animals, just stood up with slings. just the weight and act of standing seems to give an animal that seemed to give up, ...just standing them up seems to give them hope. they eat
    more, and look around more, they grow muscles faster if they are put on their feet several times a day, even if they cant stand on their own.

    tiger
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RB0...endscreen&NR=1

    and buttercup.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tRVkrXi8Q
    Last edited by jody; 05-05-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyerly View Post
    Can the muscle atrophy get so bad that it can not be reversed? I know to people that have flaccid paralysis there is the Austrian stim unit but if you don't use this could the muscle tissue become so far gone that any future therapy would likely not work for you since reconnecting signals to a muscle so far gone would not help much.
    Yes, many doctors and therapists believe that muscle atrophy is irreversible once fibrosis has set in, i.e. the muscle is no longer working and has been replaced in fibrous tissues. Fibrosis can be prevented by range of motion. As Jodi pointed out, muscle can be rebuilt from virtually tiny strands of muscle fibers. Myoblasts are the names of muscle cells that build muscles. The muscle fibers that they make will merge with existing fibers.

    It is not clear where the myoblasts come from. For a long time, people thought that myoblasts come from mesenchymal stem cells that come from bone marrow. However, this theory is now slipping because several groups have not been able to increase the number of myoblasts and rebuild muscles in animals with muscular dystrophy by injecting mesenchymal stem cells.

    On the other hand, much evidence suggest that muscles that have undergone atrophy due to denervation or non-use can rebuild when they are reinnervated. For example, after peripheral nerve injuries, muscles undergo severe atrophy and will rebuild themselves when the peripheral nerves regenerate.

    It is true that muscle rebuilding takes a long time, many months or even years. Therefore, some peripheral nerve surgeons have started to split nerves from nearby muscles to "babysit" denervated muscles, to keep them from undergoing as much atrophy before the regenerated axons reach them.

    Electrical stimulation will also rebuild muscles. Denervated muscles, unfortunately, do not respond to standard functional electrical stimulation (FES) applied from the skin surface. The reason is because the current is simply too small and cannot reach deep into the muscles to activate them. FES can activated innervated muscles because they activate the nerves going into the muscle. When the nerves are damaged or gone, surface electrical stimulation does not work.

    A group in Vienna developed a very high power stimulation that delivers many hundreds of times the current that normal FES devices give (usually the maximum current that an FES can deliver is around 20 microamperes. The device that stimulates atrophic muscles delivers 200 milliamperes or more. To prevent the skin from burning due to such high currents going through the skin, the electrode pads have to be quite large, i.e. 5 x 10 cm or bigger. This reduces the current density, i.e. milliamperes per square cm.

    About a decade ago, the Vienna group showed that their device can maintain muscles that have been completely denervated. This directly challenged a long held dogma that peripheral nerves delivers some kind of trophic factor that is needed for the muscle to survive. It suggests that activity alone (produced even by electrical stimulation) can be sufficient to maintain muscle bulk. Unfortunately, the device is not yet approved in the United States but it is available in Europe.

    The name of the company escapes me right now but I have posted about this before and I will look it up when I get a chance.

    Wise.

  3. #13
    I agree with jody. The joints are really important because movement and exercise is essential for restoration of muscle. Without joint movement, the muscles cannot recover. So, we need to pay attention attention to both the muscles and joints when restoring function.

    Of course, there are a variety of solutions for frozen joints, including joint replacement. Contracted muscles can be lengthened. And, there is a lot of research going on now to inject myoblasts into muscles. We are working on replacing motoneurons and getting the neurons to grow into the ventral roots and peripheral nerves to re-innervate muscle.

    Wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by jody View Post
    frozen joints are another problem. sometimes they get some movement back when they get stronger, but an animal with frozen joints don't regenerate muscle well or get good tone. My theory is the blood supply to the end of the bones, where muscles attatch never get enough bood supply once the movement of the joint is affected.
    so an animal in starvation rehab, trying to grow fat and muscle, is moved by hands, or walked or like with large animals, just stood up with slings. just the weight and act of standing seems to give an animal that seemed to give up, ...just standing them up seems to give them hope. they eat
    more, and look around more, they grow muscles faster if they are put on their feet several times a day, even if they cant stand on their own.

    tiger
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RB0...endscreen&NR=1

    and buttercup.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tRVkrXi8Q

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by c473s View Post
    You need to be careful with estim though. It can hurt trace muscles so build them up first with either vibration or tapping to and advance very slowly so they do not get over fatigued.
    Good advice.

  5. #15
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    The name of the company escapes me right now but I have posted about this before and I will look it up when I get a chance.

    Wise.
    Anatomical Concepts. They're on Facebook. They won't sell to a Canadian either ... they claim no one is trained and the current is too powerful for Canadian law (which I think it BS in an unregulated homeopathic, diet and supplement environment).

    http://anatomicalconcepts.com/

    I used to email with a professor who worked on the original trials. He said it would be odd not to have 'some - even if a little' muscle fibers even in a complete paralytic like me after 25yrs ...

    They have some great rehab products .. but so far priced out of anyone's personal budget or insurance. It's a shame.

    I know that Richard - Suzanne Poon's son - had one. Not sure how he's faired with it since they're not active on CareCure anymore.
    Last edited by lynnifer; 05-12-2013 at 10:09 PM.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

  6. #16

    ...

    Simple answer...in theory, every atrophied muscle could recover with enough time and patience.

    But the realistic answer, its all tremendously complicated, right?

    First your brain has to learn to make a connection to the peripheral nerve if there is a new path way generated.

    Second, "peripheral nerve shutdown" must be overcome...motor as well as sensation.

    THEN...when you can get a consistent and repeatable signal to the muscle can you begin to rebuild the muscle fiber.

    Dr. Brucker always used to say, "Any neuroscientist will tell you that some repair of central nerves does happen on its own." The limiting factor is...how long after injury does that happen? how much? To what degree?

    We all saw what Chris Reeve accomplished with a decade of therapy...he could twitch a finger voluntarily. It was recovery, it was voluntary, and it was real. With a biological intervention, maybe he could get 1000 times the number of new connections, right? Now work at it for as long as he did, and tell me where we'll be. Chris Reeve is a hero.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyerly View Post
    Can the muscle atrophy get so bad that it can not be reversed? I know to people that have flaccid paralysis there is the Austrian stim unit but if you don't use this could the muscle tissue become so far gone that any future therapy would likely not work for you since reconnecting signals to a muscle so far gone would not help much.

  7. #17
    With CES isn't the problem axons not being able to go back or something like that?
    The atrophy in my left leg has got to the point it's pretty much bone. Didn't think there was a chance of rebuilding muscle.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by lynnifer View Post
    Anatomical Concepts. They're on Facebook. They won't sell to a Canadian either ... they claim no one is trained and the current is too powerful for Canadian law (which I think it BS in an unregulated homeopathic, diet and supplement environment).

    http://anatomicalconcepts.com/

    I used to email with a professor who worked on the original trials. He said it would be odd not to have 'some - even if a little' muscle fibers even in a complete paralytic like me after 25yrs ...

    They have some great rehab products .. but so far priced out of anyone's personal budget or insurance. It's a shame.

    I know that Richard - Suzanne Poon's son - had one. Not sure how he's faired with it since they're not active on CareCure anymore.
    I have the Schuhfried Stimulette Den2x - and it has worked well for me.

    The reason it is not freely available to ship around the world is that it is a pretty brutal piece of kit which needs early clinical supervision. It's far too easy to get very serious burns if not used correctly.

    I suspect the guys in Vienna are still improving the device before the look to distribute it worldwide.

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