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Thread: This is must see tonight.

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by KK11 View Post
    Regeneration is a slow process. To be honest , you dont really try to tell us that you know things better than Wise?? C'mon......when would you be satisfied?? When someone jumps out of bed after treatment and plays soccer??
    Dr. Young and Dr. Silver are both respected experts in the study of spinal cord injury, yet they espouse opposing views on a number of essential "facts" of sci. In other words, there are a number of unknowns in terms of sci. I know it feels better to believe Dr. Young knows all - because he is very optimistic - but that doesn't mean he's perfect. Do try to keep that in mind.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by NowhereMan View Post
    *This is my opinion, riddled with assumptions, and I may be incorrect.



    I agree it might be good for muscles/bones. However, can a person walk without another person right behind them? Or will it require someone walking behind them every time they walk (highly impractical)? I think people will just hurt themselves if they’re alone. Eventually they would fall and break a hip. That would negate any health benefits. Without ANY sensation below injury it’s almost impossible to walk, even with a cart. You’d have to be hanging on to the cart for your dear life and constantly looking at your feet. A person would be f---ed if for some reason their legs stopped going in the middle of walking and they’re by themselves.




    With the information/results thus far presented you couldn’t pay me to take the treatment.


    a) Dr. Young believes the therapy is regenerating axons in the spinal cord (I don’t). If so, then most axons are missing their targets past the injury site. How would that affect any future attempt to successfully regenerate one’s spinal cord with a different future therapy? I personally wouldn’t risk success from a future (still non-existent) therapy for the ability to walk only when knees are locked by external force, hanging onto a rolling cart, without any voluntary muscle control or sensation in my paralyzed body, or bladder/bowel/sexual function.

    However, if it is proven that the therapy is truly regenerating axons then that is a highly significant feat in itself that should be further looked into.

    b) I personally don’t think the activation of central pattern generator is due to axon regeneration, so I doubt it would affect any potential future therapy. I still wouldn’t take the treatment because it would not be worth my time, money, or effort. KLS IV waking without sensation would serve of no use to me.

    c) Even if I wanted to, as a c6/7 quadriplegic I don’t think I would have the upper body strength to balance my entire body on a cart if I was by myself. Maybe if I had 2 physical therapists helping, but that wouldn’t help me in the real world.
    I'd add that hanging on to the cart for months on end can only speed the decline of one's shoulders. Anyone willing to sign up for a costly major surgery and 6-12 months of rehab for a few Frankenstein steps with a pvc cart and a team of towel holders- "See, I told you sci wouldn't beat me" - is bound for a major crash once it becomes apparent that the door leading out of the hospital has a raised threshold. And there's both a speed-bump and gravel between the door and your handi-capable van.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by KK11 View Post
    Regeneration is a slow process. To be honest , you dont really try to tell us that you know things better than Wise?? C'mon......when would you be satisfied?? When someone jumps out of bed after treatment and plays soccer??
    Appealing to authority is not a valid argument when there are dissenting views in the expert community. Regeneration has not been undeniably proven yet. Until then it is just conjecture.

    When will I be satisfied with a treatment that I would actually take? I can't answer that. My threshold depends on a function of time and scientific progress. If I were older I would accept far less recovery than I would now at 25 years old.

    If KLS IV walking is acceptable to you then you have my full blessing. To each their own.

  4. #74
    No one is claiming it's a cure. Maybe is it a step towards one...
    Debating on CareCure is like participating in the special-olympics. You may win, but you're still disabled.

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by void View Post
    No one is claiming it's a cure. Maybe is it a step towards one...
    No one is claiming that anyone is claiming it's a cure.

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    Ok so you are in the rehab business...

    I think anyone in the rehab business love Wise for coming up with the 6-6-6 thing.
    Lots of money to make and lots of people's wallets to empty .

    Just my personal opinion.

    Paolo
    Wise did not come up with the 6-6-6 program.

    I work for a non-profit, and the money we make from clients does not cover our operating costs. If I was in this for the money, I'd have gone to a different profession a long time ago. Not everybody is in the "Rehab business" to empty people's wallets.
    Last edited by tomsonite; 05-01-2013 at 05:00 PM.

  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by NowhereMan View Post
    *This is my opinion, riddled with assumptions, and I may be incorrect.

    I agree it might be good for muscles/bones. However, can a person walk without another person right behind them? Or will it require someone walking behind them every time they walk (highly impractical)? I think people will just hurt themselves if they’re alone. Eventually they would fall and break a hip. That would negate any health benefits. Without ANY sensation below injury it’s almost impossible to walk, even with a cart. You’d have to be hanging on to the cart for your dear life and constantly looking at your feet. A person would be f---ed if for some reason their legs stopped going in the middle of walking and they’re by themselves.
    You seem to be missing my point, NowhereMan. Take this hypothetical situation.

    Suppose you use a wheelchair full time to get around. Then you get the surgery then go through a 6-6-6 program. Suppose you never get past KLS IV. But, in the meantime, through the surgery and all that aggressive therapy, you improve your bone density, you increase your muscle mass, your upper body gets stronger from supporting yourself on that walker so much, and regain some bowel and bladder function, or maybe at least enough sensation to manage it better. When all is said and done, you still go back to using your chair full-time, but it's way easier to get around and you can get through a long day without using so much energy from that stronger upper body. It is easier to balance and do things in your chair from the increased core strength/function. Your B&B program is much easier to manage. Even though you still have to use your chair after all that walking, you still have a higher quality of life.

    Is it worth going through all that to have a higher quality of life from your chair? You seem to think not, and that's fine. There is no "correct" answer to that question. Other people just might think it IS worth it to do all that walking for the quality of life benefits, even if they don't get walking back.

  8. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    You seem to be missing my point, NowhereMan. Take this hypothetical situation.

    Suppose you use a wheelchair full time to get around. Then you get the surgery then go through a 6-6-6 program. Suppose you never get past KLS IV. But, in the meantime, through the surgery and all that aggressive therapy, you improve your bone density, you increase your muscle mass, your upper body gets stronger from supporting yourself on that walker so much, and regain some bowel and bladder function, or maybe at least enough sensation to manage it better. When all is said and done, you still go back to using your chair full-time, but it's way easier to get around and you can get through a long day without using so much energy from that stronger upper body. It is easier to balance and do things in your chair from the increased core strength/function. Your B&B program is much easier to manage. Even though you still have to use your chair after all that walking, you still have a higher quality of life.

    Is it worth going through all that to have a higher quality of life from your chair? You seem to think not, and that's fine. There is no "correct" answer to that question. Other people just might think it IS worth it to do all that walking for the quality of life benefits, even if they don't get walking back.
    I haven't heard anything about return of sensation or control of bladder or bowel function. If your abs are paralyzed, you will not get core strength back. Once you stop the therapy you're just going to atrophy again and all those 6 months of rehab will be for nothing. Unless you continue to do it at home forever. Doing it at home seems very dangerous to me.

    Upper arm strength can be obtained at a gym w/o therapy. Even a fes bike would be able to increase muscle/bone density in legs. 6-6-6 seems like a lot of work/$ for just health benefits that can be attained at a SCI gym. Just my opinion.

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by NowhereMan View Post
    With the information/results thus far presented you couldn’t pay me to take the treatment.
    I think its very interesting how divided some of us are. Id be willing to pay the $100k and more to get into the trial alone.

  10. #80
    Senior Member trekker6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrington314mx View Post
    I think its very interesting how divided some of us are. Id be willing to pay the $100k and more to get into the trial alone.
    Every little bit of return is precious, here's to hoping this is the beginning of something we'll always cherish!
    Thanks, tomsonite and dr. Wise!
    "Would you rather reduce deficits and interest rates by raising revenue from those who are not now paying their fair share, or would you rather accept larger budget deficits, higher interest rates, and higher unemployment? And I think I know your answer." Ronald Reagan"

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