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Thread: This is must see tonight.

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by NowhereMan View Post
    I haven't heard anything about return of sensation or control of bladder or bowel function. If your abs are paralyzed, you will not get core strength back. Once you stop the therapy you're just going to atrophy again and all those 6 months of rehab will be for nothing. Unless you continue to do it at home forever. Doing it at home seems very dangerous to me.

    Upper arm strength can be obtained at a gym w/o therapy. Even a fes bike would be able to increase muscle/bone density in legs. 6-6-6 seems like a lot of work/$ for just health benefits that can be attained at a SCI gym. Just my opinion.

    Just because you haven't heard about return of sensation or B&B doesn't mean it won't happen. Remember nothing has been published yet and when phase III trials commence they will be done on many more people and with more, different experimental groups.

    You're right that a lot of the benefits I mentioned can be attained at an SCI gym, and some could even be attained at a commercial gym or at home. However, nobody works out that much at a gym or at home. The sheer volume of work that's involved in 6-6-6 will make more massive gains possible. You are also right that you'd lose all the benefits you gain if you go immediately from 6-6-6 back to nothing at all. But there is most likely a minimal level of work you could do to maintain what you gained. What amount of work this is, I have no idea. Perhaps it's 4 hours x 4 days/week. Perhaps it's 2 hours x 2 days. Maybe 1.5 hours x 5 days/week? Who knows. Time will tell.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by rjg View Post
    No one is claiming that anyone is claiming it's a cure.
    No one is telling you to queue up for this, don't know why you diss the study. Hopefully it will get some wheels spinning.
    Debating on CareCure is like participating in the special-olympics. You may win, but you're still disabled.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    Wise did not come up with the 6-6-6 program.

    I work for a non-profit, and the money we make from clients does not cover our operating costs. If I was in this for the money, I'd have gone to a different profession a long time ago. Not everybody is in the "Rehab business" to empty people's wallets.
    Good that you are not in that for the money, but rehab remains a business driven field most of the times.

    Wise came up with the name 666 (which is a very bad name for Christians, just that should have suggested to find a better name), not with the intensive rehab concept.
    The 666 is a SUPER intensive rehab approach. In my opinion is unrealistic and misleading as it contribute to sell the concept that SCI can be cured with intense rehab, therefore the ones who don't walk are just the lazy ones.

    How long have you been working in rehab with SCI people if I can ask?

    Paolo

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Curt,

    Why are you assuming that there is no nerve connections? Even in so called "complete" spinal cord injuries, there are likely to be some connections. Also, I did not say that patients have no voluntary activity or sensation, only that the motor and sensory scores are not sufficient to explain the walking.

    Many people do stand without leg braces, just with their spasticity. You may be thinking of people with flaccid paralysis. In that case, they may flop to the ground. However, most people with spastic paralysis are able to stand, even people with cervical spinal cord injuries.

    I hope that we are making people more "incomplete" with our therapy and that is why some are walking.

    Wise.
    Wise,

    you have to do something about your memory, seriously.

    All patients in the study are ASIA A complete and did not change motor and sensory scores. You said that many times.

    Paolo

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    Good that you are not in that for the money, but rehab remains a business driven field most of the times.

    Wise came up with the name 666 (which is a very bad name for Christians, just that should have suggested to find a better name), not with the intensive rehab concept.
    The 666 is a SUPER intensive rehab approach. In my opinion is unrealistic and misleading as it contribute to sell the concept that SCI can be cured with intense rehab, therefore the ones who don't walk are just the lazy ones.

    How long have you been working in rehab with SCI people if I can ask?

    Paolo
    Rehab may be business driven sometimes, but isn't there a business component to everything that people do for a living? I'm about as far away from a capitalist pig-dog that you can get, but I still think people should be able to make a living.

    I don't think anyone who really knows anything about 666 tries to sell it as a cure for SCI. Maybe this is done by others but not the scientists and therapists who know what's behind it. I don't need to tell you that a cure for SCI involves a hell of a lot more than just walking. Also, any good scientist, therapist, or in my case trainer (as I am not any type of licensed therapist) will tell you that exercise alone will not return functionally relevant, independent walking in the majority of the SCI population. For some people who are very incomplete, a very high volume of exercise (hours a day, multiple days a week) can restore independent ambulation. But these are the exceptions, not the rule. For most people with SCI, high volumes of activity based training will keep their bodies healthy and in good enough shape to be able to handle things like being patients in a clinical trial that involves something like 666. I have seen people get some voluntary function back but as I said, it is usually not enough to gain completely independent ambulation.

    I have been working as an SCI trainer for a little less than 2 years. One month after I started working at the gym I'm at, I went to working 2 walk in Baltimore in the fall of 2011. That experience alone is what got me so intensely into my work, and one of the things that still resonates with me is you sticking it to certain researchers as to why more is not being done for chronic SCIs.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by rjg View Post
    No one is claiming that anyone is claiming it's a cure.
    Good disclaimer

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by tomsonite View Post
    Rehab may be business driven sometimes, but isn't there a business component to everything that people do for a living? I'm about as far away from a capitalist pig-dog that you can get, but I still think people should be able to make a living.

    I don't think anyone who really knows anything about 666 tries to sell it as a cure for SCI. Maybe this is done by others but not the scientists and therapists who know what's behind it. I don't need to tell you that a cure for SCI involves a hell of a lot more than just walking. Also, any good scientist, therapist, or in my case trainer (as I am not any type of licensed therapist) will tell you that exercise alone will not return functionally relevant, independent walking in the majority of the SCI population. For some people who are very incomplete, a very high volume of exercise (hours a day, multiple days a week) can restore independent ambulation. But these are the exceptions, not the rule. For most people with SCI, high volumes of activity based training will keep their bodies healthy and in good enough shape to be able to handle things like being patients in a clinical trial that involves something like 666. I have seen people get some voluntary function back but as I said, it is usually not enough to gain completely independent ambulation.

    I have been working as an SCI trainer for a little less than 2 years. One month after I started working at the gym I'm at, I went to working 2 walk in Baltimore in the fall of 2011. That experience alone is what got me so intensely into my work, and one of the things that still resonates with me is you sticking it to certain researchers as to why more is not being done for chronic SCIs.



    Paolo

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    That's it, it's well known and in some cases (one I know of) people can get worse.
    Sometimes nothing change.
    Sometimes they get better.

    Dr. Reis does not talk about the cases that got worse.

    Paolo
    I've done it, almost nothing changed.... but I have seen for most of them (75% i guess) is positive, for one more than the others, each case is different.......even so, I do not regret that I did it, I would do it again
    Last edited by Johnnie Walked; 05-02-2013 at 04:13 PM.
    keep (rolling) Walking

    Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnie Walked View Post
    I've done it, almost nothing changed.... but I have seen for most of them (75% i guess) is positive, for one more than the others, each case is different.......even so, I do not regret that I did it, I would do it again
    Thanks for telling us.
    I think depending on how your spinal cord looks like, what you have to loose, your level of injury, etc. it can make sense to go for it given the fact that there is no effective therapy for chronic SCI... yet.

    Given the existence of this publisched study I don't understand why Wise is planning to do an arm of the trial with just this procedure once again.

    Paolo

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