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Thread: neurotrophins

  1. #11
    Thank you for your answer professor I ask you this because a doctor offered me to inject it neurotrophin FGF, PDGF, le NGF et nt3 et NT6 injecting into the lesion

    with mesenchymal stromal cells from bone marrow in the spinal cord, he told me that it's been available clinically for neurotrophin rapid use fgf,pdgf,ngf and nt3 and nt6.
    Last edited by fti; 04-21-2013 at 06:44 AM.
    JustaDollarPlease.org

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Ryan,

    The standard clinical form of lithium that is given clinically is lithium carbonate. Most of what you say concerning the dosage of lithium orotate is not true.

    1. 5 mg doses of lithium orotate cannot provide enough lithium to achieve therapeutic lithium levels, which is between 0.6 and 1.2 mM blood levels, in humans. The molecular weight of lithium orotate is 162.03 g/mol. One millimole of lithium orotate would be 0.163 g or 163 mg. Five mg of lithium orotrate is only 0.03 millimole. Even if it were absorbed completely or injected intravenously, this cannot yield effective blood levels of lithium.

    2. Lithium carbonate or lithium sulfate (the two major pharmaceutically available forms of lithium) is absorbed as well as or perhaps better than lithium orotate. The typical oral dose (~1 gram a day) does not disrupt blood pH. It is true that if you take only 5 mg of lihium orotrate at a time, there should be little or no lithium toxicity but that is because the dose is far below effective dose levels.

    3. Please do not believe what is being touted in the literature by Dr. John Gray and others. He is selling lithium orotate. I don't know what kind of doctor he is (apparently he is a "relation therapist") but most of what he says about lithium is wrong, in my opinion. By the way, all pharmaceutical lithium is GMP grade and you should not be taking any lithium that is not prescribed by a medical doctor.

    Wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Ryan, The standard clinical form of lithium that is given clinically is lithium carbonate. Most of what you say concerning the dosage of lithium orotate is not true. 1. 5 mg doses of lithium orotate cannot provide enough lithium to achieve therapeutic lithium levels, which is between 0.6 and 1.2 mM blood levels, in humans. The molecular weight of lithium orotate is 162.03 g/mol. One millimole of lithium orotate would be 0.163 g or 163 mg. Five mg of lithium orotrate is only 0.03 millimole. Even if it were absorbed completely or injected intravenously, this cannot yield effective blood levels of lithium. 2. Lithium carbonate or lithium sulfate (the two major pharmaceutically available forms of lithium) is absorbed as well as or perhaps better than lithium orotate. The typical oral dose (~1 gram a day) does not disrupt blood pH. It is true that if you take only 5 mg of lihium orotrate at a time, there should be little or no lithium toxicity but that is because the dose is far below effective dose levels. 3. Please do not believe what is being touted in the literature by Dr. John Gray and others. He is selling lithium orotate. I don't know what kind of doctor he is (apparently he is a "relation therapist") but most of what he says about lithium is wrong, in my opinion. By the way, all pharmaceutical lithium is GMP grade and you should not be taking any lithium that is not prescribed by a medical doctor. Wise.
    Dr Wise:

    Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I can understand some of your conclusions, such as the statement about lithium carbonate or sulfate being absorbed better, in light of one study (the first cited below) which seemed to suggest impaired absorption (and also impaired elimination). Yet, the fact is the same study actually referenced another study which revealed a greater concentration of lithium absorption in the brain for the orotate form compared to other forms.

    This implies that one would NOT need such a high dosage of lithium orotate (to achieve the same benefits as the carbonate or sulfate forms) and that one could lower the dosage to possibly avoid potential kidney impairment (without sacrificing any of lithiums benefits). In other words, one would NOT need the high blood levels required for the carbonate or sulfate forms to get the same level of absorption into the CNS.

    Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems you may have misunderstood my statements about absorption. I was referring to absorption into the *CNS* where it is needed as opposed to absorption from the intestinal membrane into the *BLOOD*. Granted there seems to be only a few studies of the orotate form and these were done back in the 70's (not to say they aren't valid). I'm not sure if there are any studies which have been done to prove the effectiveness of lithium orotate or aspartate at low dosages such as 5mg. I do know that there are ER cases of people suffering from the effects of lithium toxicity (hand tremors, etc.) after taking only 5mg (approx.) of lithium orotate or aspartate which would seem to suggest higher absorption across the blood-brain barrier compared to the carbonate or sulfate.

    Personally, I was getting hand tremors after only a few days of the *aspartate* form at about 5mg. I was also suffering from appetite loss and slightly impaired cognition (I felt like I was in a daze). Normally I overeat due to an insatiable appetite. While taking the *orotate* form, I did NOT suffer from hand tremors nor did it affect my appetite...although it did seem to adversely affect my skin texture. Nevertheless, despite the problems with skin texture, the orotate form did improve my mood and increased my resilience against stress and depression from events which would normally disrupt my mental state for several days. I also noticed that my caffeine addiction was no longer in control of me while taking the orotate form. I was able to abstain from caffeine with no cravings or temptations. I quit taking the orotate form because it was adversely affecting my skin texture. I had hoped that the orotate would improve my skin texture since the aspartate form had greatly improved my skin texture to a more youthful appearance (despite the adverse affects). Not so.

    As stated previously, I suspect the purity of these OTC lithium product may have been questionable since they were NOT certified (GMP). To prove the importance of GMP certification, I bought a bottle of potasium iodide (KI) tablets the other day. It was NOT certified GMP but I was desparate so bought it anyway. When I opened the bottle I noticed the tablets were brown, presumably due to the presence of iodiNe (as opposed to iodiDe). Nowhere was any form other than potassium iodide listed on the label. Yet, potassium iodide is colorless (white as a solid or clear as a solution)...NOT BROWN. Obviously one is NOT getting what is listed on the label with this particular brand of KI...!

    Although I'm not sure the orotate and aspartate forms of lithium have been properly evaluated for potential benefits...I do suspect they will prove to be very beneficial. Yet, I agree with you that one should NEVER take lithium without a doctor's supervision. This can lead to adverse potentially life threatening reactions as I can personally testify. Here's that reference I promised:

    Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate.

    Authors

    Smith DF, et al.

    Journal

    J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Mar;31(3):161-3.

    Abstract

    "A recent study by Kling et al (1978) noted the finding of higher lithium concentrations in serum and brain of rats after an intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of lithium orotate as a slurry than of lithium carbonate in solution. The authors suggested that lithium orotate might offer advantages in the treatment of patients. We repeated the experiments of Kling et al but in addition examined the kidney function of the rats. Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection. The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function. It seems inadvisable to use lithium orotate for the treatment of patients."

    -Ryan
    Last edited by Ryan B; 04-22-2013 at 12:44 AM.

  3. #13
    Here is the other study referenced in the previously cited study which suggests superiority of the orotate form versus the carbonate form:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed...260219/related
    Last edited by Ryan B; 04-22-2013 at 01:44 AM.

  4. #14
    This is the only study I'm aware of which claims that there is no difference between absorption and retention/excretion of the various forms of lithium including the orotate form. I haven't had time to evaluate the study yet one detail to take into consideration when evaluating the data would be levels of lithium in the CNS to determine absorption across the blood-brain barrier as opposed to merely the blood levels of lithium alone.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed.../34690/related

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by fti View Post
    Thank you for your answer professor I ask you this because a doctor offered me to inject it neurotrophin FGF, PDGF, le NGF et nt3 et NT6 injecting into the lesion

    with mesenchymal stromal cells from bone marrow in the spinal cord, he told me that it's been available clinically for neurotrophin rapid use fgf,pdgf,ngf and nt3 and nt6.
    fti
    who is this doctor, and where is this treatment available? how can i contact him?
    thanks

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