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Thread: Jerry Silver and Other Discussion from ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by jsilver View Post
    I'm done with this semantic word game that you like to play.
    Semantics are important. Most of us here have spinal cord injury. There is a big difference between a C-5/6 ASIA B and a T-9 ASIA A. Like any other medical description, why shouldn't different types of scars be classified under different names?
    Quote Originally Posted by jsilver View Post
    Yes, indeed, the scar does change over time. It becomes thinner and its associated inhibitory proteoglycan extracellular matrices become more restricted to the cell surfaces. In some very severe contusive injuries, Schwann cells eventually invade through the dorsal portion of the scar and enter the core of the lesion. It is unknown how they do this. Schwann cells are extremely growth promoting and they provide a scaffold for axonal growth, mostly of sensory axons from the roots, that can pass through the scar wall and into the core of the lesion. This phenomenon demonstrates that the scar is not totally but only relatively impenetrable. However, the presence of axons in the lesion core does not mean that scar does not exist but, rather, that over time the scar changes and one of these changes is that Schwann cell invasion occurs. However, axons do not pass completely through the lesion as Wise suggests but only into the lesion core where they remain trapped and functionally useless.
    Schwann cells/axons penetrate the scar and get into the core of the lesion. It is unknown how they do this.

    Could a potent cocktail of stem cells, methylprednisolone, and lithium perhaps do the same thing, maybe even exponentially better?
    Last edited by crabbyshark; 01-07-2013 at 09:46 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by quadfather View Post
    The saddest part of this exchange/discussion is that highlights just how very far we are from treatments that will help us.

    A very long way...
    There is a clinical trial being done in which people are being injected with stem cells. This has never. been. done. before. Even if people failed to show improvement, its proven safety alone is a big deal. Dr. Wise says he thinks he's observed some improvements. The study will be published sometime in the coming months. What about scientists arguing makes you think we are "a very long way..." from treatments that will help us?

    Dr. Silver has dedicated 30 years working to overcome the scar. If the UCBMC therapy with no implanted scaffold works, that might indicate overcoming the scar (at least in some cases) isn't that big of a deal. If I were Dr. Silver I'd probably be a little salty too. He's contributed a lot to SCI research.
    Last edited by crabbyshark; 01-09-2013 at 07:58 PM. Reason: clarity

  3. #163
    Even better if he could come out with a trial to show removing the scar shows better results.It will only benefits towards finding a cure more.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by crabbyshark View Post
    A lot of experts made the same argument when rumors first leaked about the Earth being round.

    Every single scientist in the world could claim "stem cell injection without an implanted scaffold fails to regenerate spinal cord" but it doesn't mean much if one of them tries it out and somehow it works.
    If we rely on actual published peer reviewed animal research studies in good scientific journals and clinically relevant data to help with SCI recovery we should find whether or not the scar is a barrier and perhaps eventually therapies that will overcome all the obstacles to regeneration.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by crabbyshark View Post
    There is a clinical trial being done in which people are being injected with stem cells. This has never. been. done. before. Even if it fails, it's a big deal. Dr. Wise says he thinks he's observed some improvements. The study will be published sometime in the coming months. What about scientists arguing makes you think we are "a very long way..." from treatments that will help us?

    Dr. Silver has dedicated 30 years working to overcome the scar. If the UCBMC therapy with no implanted scaffold works, that might indicate overcoming the scar (at least in some cases) isn't that big of a deal. If I were Dr. Silver I'd probably be a little salty too. He's contributed a lot to SCI.
    Clinical trials for chronics is a big deal. Just like the University of Florida embryonic tissue trial on chronics done in the 90s and the Diacrin stem cell trial on chronics done 12 years ago (BTW both failed). My point is that we need more trials for chronics. Let's do that rather than this. We 1000 trials per day to be starting. Then maybe one will hit.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Paddon View Post
    If we rely on actual published peer reviewed animal research studies in good scientific journals and clinically relevant data to help with SCI recovery we should find whether or not the scar is a barrier and perhaps eventually therapies that will overcome all the obstacles to regeneration.
    In the coming months we will be able to rely on an actual peer reviewed HUMAN research study published in a good scientific journal with clinically relevant data to help with SCI recovery.

    If Dr. Silver says he's observed axons growing past the scar wall without a scaffold and Dr. Wise says he, too, has observed axons growing past the scar wall without a scaffold, then perhaps axons can somehow grow beyond the scar wall without a scaffold.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by quadfather View Post
    Clinical trials for chronics is a big deal. Just like the University of Florida embryonic tissue trial on chronics done in the 90s and the Diacrin stem cell trial on chronics done 12 years ago (BTW both failed). My point is that we need more trials for chronics. Let's do that rather than this. We 1000 trials per day to be starting. Then maybe one will hit.
    Embryonic stem cells and neural pig cells < HLA matched umbilical cord blood mononuclear cells (adult stem cells). HLA matched UCBMC are safe, much less likely to be rejected by the body and are already approved for use in the United States.

    Did Wise Young, or any prominent researcher for that matter, claim in either one of those trials to see DTI's suggesting robust axonal growth or that some of the subjects seemed to be recovering locomotor function?

    Where do you suggest we get the funding to run 1000 trials per day? Do you think a more efficient use of limited resources would be to focus them on one or two really promising therapies instead? Do you think that when the official study is published, confirming what Dr. Wise has been saying the whole time, it will make raising funds much easier?

  8. #168
    It's also very important to remember that rats aren't nearly the same as us. Who knows how our CNS's will react to these therapies.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    It's also very important to remember that rats aren't nearly the same as us. Who knows how our CNS's will react to these therapies.

    I've known a few dirty rats in my lifetime, so perhaps that research isn't so far off. *Bad joke over*

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    It's also very important to remember that rats aren't nearly the same as us. Who knows how our CNS's will react to these therapies.
    While this is certainly true, I don't think it's something to hang your hat on.
    You can't on the one hand tote animal studies as suggestive of the potential for a therapy, as Dr. Young has done in the case of umbilical cord blood, and then wave off criticisms based on animal studies because we just don't know how humans will react. Of course we don't know, until we try it on humans...but before then, convention is to test it on animals as they are our best indicator. Otherwise we're just pissing in the wind... I think though, besides the scar issue there's another fundamental difference between Dr.'s Young and Silver and that is the extent to which we should continue on animals vs. moving onto humans and what is the threshold of "promise" for a therapy that we need before moving from the former to the latter. I'm not taking a side here, but that's something that maybe should be discussed and clarified.

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