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Thread: Jerry Silver and Other Discussion from ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #151
    [QUOTE=Wise Young;1634364]As I have said many times before, I don't think that we disagree on the phenomenon. We disagree on the terminology. I believe that the word "scar" should be reserved for situations when fibroblasts are present. In my opinion, the word "gliosis" should be used to refer to tissues where astrocytes have proliferated. I don't even oppose the term "glial scar", as long as it is applied to the situation when fibroblasts have invaded into central nervous tissue and formed a fibrous scar against which glial cells have proliferated.

    Wise, I will never argue this issue again with you. This is it for me. I have made myself perfectly clear over and over and over. You are the odd man out on this issue and you can simply remain that way. Good luck with your trials but I can assure you that nobody will believe your claims of regeneration without decent data. I'm done with this semantic word game that you like to play. You have no idea what you are talking about and your arguments make no sense especially in a modern scientific world. Astrocytes are perfectly capable of building a wall without the presence of fibroblasts. No barrier is absolute. I thought I made that point quite clearly. You have the unmitigated gall to suggest that I don't understand the implications of the data from my own lab! Are you totally nuts? You use ancient or insufficient techniques and are far too liberal with the mechanistic conclusions you draw from your data. Bye Bye
    Last edited by jsilver; 01-05-2013 at 01:05 PM.

  2. #152
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Ouch.

    Irregardless, I hope this works. It could save a lot of lives. Breathing restored ... bladder function alone would spare so many of constant infections (I hope?) and the ever present risk of sepsis and death. Not to mention the improved quality of life.

    The only problem would be a female who can't transfer in time to pee!

    "Since the 1800's ..." No one believed him. "1996 ... " No one believed him.

    Just finished a 3 week course of Cipro which causes skin disruptions on old scars for me ... the leaking has stopped. I'll have some testing done on Monday. It appears to me though, now, that I am a ticking time bomb since using the foley in 2009. Colonized probably ... I'll have to be careful not to develop antibiotic resistance. This research is what I've waited so long for ...
    Last edited by lynnifer; 01-06-2013 at 04:14 AM.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

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  3. #153

    Dr jsilver

    [QUOTE=jsilver;1634494]
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    As I have said many times before, I don't think that we disagree on the phenomenon. We disagree on the terminology. I believe that the word "scar" should be reserved for situations when fibroblasts are present. In my opinion, the word "gliosis" should be used to refer to tissues where astrocytes have proliferated. I don't even oppose the term "glial scar", as long as it is applied to the situation when fibroblasts have invaded into central nervous tissue and formed a fibrous scar against which glial cells have proliferated.

    Wise, I will never argue this issue again with you. This is it for me. I have made myself perfectly clear over and over and over. You are the odd man out on this issue and you can simply remain that way. Good luck with your trials but I can assure you that nobody will believe your claims of regeneration without decent data. I'm done with this semantic word game that you like to play. You have no idea what you are talking about and your arguments make no sense especially in a modern scientific world. Astrocytes are perfectly capable of building a wall without the presence of fibroblasts. No barrier is absolute. I thought I made that point quite clearly. You have the unmitigated gall to suggest that I don't understand the implications of the data from my own lab! Are you totally nuts? You use ancient or insufficient techniques and are far too liberal with the mechanistic conclusions you draw from your data. Bye Bye
    Befour
    you go any where thank you for your in put on this i am not taking any sides . For it is all to complicated for me to understand all i would like to know is will it work
    Can i ask you when do you hope to bring you work to Human trials sorry if this was ask befour
    Last edited by skeaman; 01-05-2013 at 03:09 PM.
    AS I SIT HERE IN MY CHAIR . I LOOK OUT UPON THE GROUND .I WONDER WILL I EVER GET UP AND WALK A ROUND ??


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  4. #154
    The trials are underway, they're going for Phase III, and I don't know what to think given Dr. Silvers criticisms. But, if function is being restored and its safe, the mechanism isn't quite that important. Which is why I hope some detailed information of the recent 6 month data is provided to the community, either here or in a journal. It would go a long way to alleviating the fears that understandably arise when you have another respected scientist in the field saying "this will not work". Of course, if the therapy proves ineffective we'll all be going back to those words and will have wished we took the criticisms a little more seriously. I totally support the idea of a clinical trial network to test the most promising therapies... But dollars are scarce. Again, hoping the treatment proves effective...

  5. #155

    Thumbs up

    Dr. Silver,

    May I ask what, in your opinion, is the significance of the different terminology you and Wise use to describe the glial barrier?

    After reading this:

    Source:
    Scar formation

    A glial scar forms after injury to the CNS and acts as a barrier to regenerating neurons (Figure 1). Glial scars consist mainly of reactive astrocytes, which become hypertrophic and greatly increase their expression of intermediate filament proteins such as vimentin and glial fibrillary acidic protein. Reactive astrocytes and oligodendrocyte precursor cells (OPCs) have been shown to upregulate their expression of scar-associated inhibitory CSPGs such as neurocan, phosphacan and versican [8]. Interestingly, the expression of both growth-inhibitory and growth-promoting ECM molecules increases in reactive astroglia, but the inhibitory ECM components are more markedly upregulated [11]. In more severe injuries resulting in breakdown of the meninges, connective tissue elements, such as fibroblasts, mix with astrocytes and other invading cells, including macrophages, in the lesion [12].

    Development of the scar begins within hours of injury, and a correlation among the areas of most significant BBB breakdown, highest infiltration of activated macrophages and greatest glial scar formation has been demonstrated [13]. Reactive microglia and OPCs are recruited to the forming scar, where they proliferate [8]. Immediately after injury, astrocytes undergo a process known as ‘reactive gliosis’. Transgenically targeted ablation of the dividing population of reactive astrocytes after spinal cord injury (SCI) prevents reestablishment of the BBB, resulting in an increase in lesion size, cell death, an exacerbated immune response and marked motor deficits [14]. Thus, despite its inhibitory properties, the glial scar is vital to seclusion of the damaged site and to protection of the surrounding regions from secondary injury. (Source)
    A better question might be: what differentiates 'reactive gliosis' from a 'glial scar'? (Is 'reactive gliosis' the process by which a 'glial scar' forms?)

    Best,

    Steven
    ...it's worse than we thought. it turns out the people at the white house are not secret muslims, they're nerds.

  6. #156
    I think Jerry has answered this - in simple terms Jerry says the 'scar' has to be dealt with in some way before any bridging therapy can succeed whereas Wise thinks just transplanting cord blood cells or some other cells into the injury site may be enough. The question we can ask ourselves is how many scientists agree with Wise and how many agree with Jerry.
    Last edited by Christopher Paddon; 01-06-2013 at 01:18 AM.

  7. #157
    In the recent Wise's trial, Dr Wise said nerve bundle grew across the injury site.Is this a case of nerve growing across the scar? Is Dr J.Silver trying to say if Dr Wise remove the scar,the result will be better? Confuse, can someone correct me if i'm wrong. Thanks in advance.

  8. #158
    .. Pride.. Such a potent emotion. And sad to see two intellectual capacities not being able to agree to disagree. I can't help but think of the words sung by Presley a long time ago: "a little less conversation and a little more action, please. All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1_6F-nCaw
    "It's not the despair, I can handle the despair! It's the hope!" - John Cleese

    Don't ask what clinical trials can do for you, ask what you can do for clinical trials. (Ox)
    Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

  9. #159
    The saddest part of this exchange/discussion is that highlights just how very far we are from treatments that will help us.

    A very long way...

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Paddon View Post
    The question we can ask ourselves is how many scientists agree with Wise and how many agree with Jerry.
    A lot of experts made the same argument when rumors first leaked about the Earth being round.

    Every single scientist in the world could claim "stem cell injection without an implanted scaffold fails to regenerate spinal cord" but it doesn't mean much if one of them tries it out and somehow it works.
    Last edited by crabbyshark; 01-07-2013 at 04:04 AM.

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