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Thread: Specs for a ZRA2 with flip-up footrests (DU 100082)

  1. #21
    off topic i know, but i was on the decon website for a different reason earlier, and their page for the e-move (their rebadging of quickie xtender, made by yamaha, and exactly the same except they dont lie that it only fits on one brand of chair) and it says it has a setting for one armed drive. sorry i cant tell you anymore about it, but its a swedish company so they may already have established dutch dealers. anyway, i thought it might be of interest.
    www,decon.se

  2. #22
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    I believe you. I did not need to do the conversions you are doing. It probably took me close to 6 months before I felt "comfortable" and still wasn't. Somehow told myself, get over it and just order it. I felt way better once that happened. Was not even concernedabout actual delivery date. Mine was delivered about 1 week later than the date supplier was telling me. I was firt tole a delivery date when he was informed from Tilite it had been shipped. Is your chair made in USA and then must go through all of the customs things?

    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    I've spec'd this chair out many times in many different ways, with both the Dutch and US TiLite order forms. Believe me, you don't want to see my spreadsheet of centimeters to inches and euro's to dollars with various suppliers, tax and shipping rates, along with full user and chair measurements, etc. That is definitely not what I am feeling uncomfortable about. But thanks anyway.

  3. #23
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    We sent the local dealer modified specs for the chair. Thanks everyone for your input. Hopefully they will turnaround a new CAD drawing

    We changed the Frame Depth to be 19” and the the Rear Seat Height to be 17.5”. Although not much, hopefully this will help on the forward tippy’ness of the chair. TiLite was not very helpful with giving information about why the previous specs made it tippy, which I find odd after making a statement on the CAD that it “does not meet TiLite’s minimum stability requirements”.


    We changed the Custom Rigidizer Bar Height dimension to 7.3" so it is as high as possible to not get in the way of foot propulsion. We made the decision to give up on the Speedy Elektra. It was not really top on our list anyway, but it was what was approved by the government, so we were considering it to save on bureaucracy. We will wait for the ZX1 -- hopefully that will not be too long. Otherwise, we will try the FireFly or similar front frame mounted power handbike (Thanks for the specs for the FireFly Gordy).


    Although we may have the CAD sorted out, I still have no idea what the pricing is. I'm really disappointed that our local dealer has not provided us with it yet -- it's been more than 3 weeks since asking for it. It's strange to me that they put the CAD drawing before the price quote, when it's the price quote we have been asking for. The government person we need to send it to for approval is probably not working now until after the new year. Very frustrating to say the least.
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  4. #24
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    We would have if we could. See my last post about not having a price quote yet. We had wanted this behind us for the holidays, and also because there is a chance the government may change the rules on us. Oh well, such is life.
    Quote Originally Posted by rlmtrhmiles View Post
    ... Somehow told myself, get over it and just order it. I felt way better once that happened.
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  5. #25
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    Input needed on forward tippy chair

    Hi again,

    We are making progress and have a reasonable quote and a new CAD drawing. We are happy with all of the specs, including the higher placement of the Custom Rigidizer Bar, but TiLite is still saying that it “does not meet TiLite’s minimum stability requirements, may result in forward tippy chair”. They were helpful in replying about why it may result in a forward tippy chair:

    We have a minimum required measurement for the distance between the front of the seat upholstery to the middle of the caster in the trailing position since our chairs are designed so much shorter than our competitors. Because we do not know the body types and necessities of our customers we want to be sure that most if not all of the weight in the chair is behind the front casters so that the chair does not tip forward.
    Because of the specific measurement requests we are unable to design and achieve the minimum distance between the upholstery and caster.
    My question for any of you is how we might be able to make sure it is not forward tippy. About the only thing I can think of is to change the front angle from 85° to 80°.

    We had wanted 85° so that the frame is not in the way for foot propulsion and for better maneuverability. I've been trying to understand Occupied Frame Length (front of back post to front of footrest), in SCI_OTR's recent post 15x17+2 80 Degree TiLite TR3, and it does seem to me that an 80° front angle would help. Just as a note, even when the Frame Depth was 19.625” they said it would be forward tippy (see previous CAD drawing).

    Here is the most recent CAD drawing. I will be sure to ask for the Occupied Frame Length in the next one (wish I had done that for this one).
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  6. #26
    I printed your CAD drawing and measured the OFL on paper, it would be 68 cm or 26.77 inches if I did not make any mistake.

  7. #27
    Regarding forward tippy chair, going to 80° with same frame depth will help by moving casters forward a bit but you may have to adjust foot plates to rear and also you may have to ask to increase rigidizer bar depth a bit to avoid so that it does not touch his legs when propelling.

    Also you may consider that the risk is quite low for tipping forward when your husband will propel himself because he will have a part of his weight on one or both legs not on the footrest. The highest risk to tip forward might be when being pushed but it can be avoided by the pusher and by your husband by putting more weight on backrest. Then there is the case of transfers and it depends a lot of how he does them.

  8. #28
    Looking at your specs, I have concerns about the following...

    In my experience, relatively few adult males require an 18" seat depth on a chair with an 85 degree frame angle if they use their uppers to self-propel. With someone who foot propels, seat depth should be less than the theoretical ideal becuase the feet have freely move under the chair to be efficient. If I had to guess the size of someone who would be able to foot propel this configuration, I'd say they would need to be at least 6'2".

    The extra rigidizer bar is positioned so that there will be no room for clamp on wheel locks and possibly not even enough room to easily access the engage lever for D's locks. It is also just 1.5" behind the upholstery which could create leg clearance issues. The effective depth of the bar behind the upholstery is even less because of the bends that give the bar its a "U" shape. The radius for those bends takes up space, and available space is limited on a 16" wide chair.

    I believe the forward stability concern has to do with the fact that the ZRA has relatively high front and rear seat-to-floor heights that are only 1.5" different combined with 5" casters and FrogLegs suspension forks. Even with the 1" longer custom frame, the fork stems are just slightly in front of the upholstery. When the user leans forward, the front upholstery will sag slightly, the bend in the frame gets a little tighter, and the elastomers in the Frog Legs forks compress. The longer footplates on the chair also increase the proportion of the users weight that is in front of that forkstem. Think of the chair as a lever which uses the front casters as the fulcrum. The various forces causing the front of chair to dip downward applied to the longer lever arm can cause the chair to tip. An 80 degree won't help because the footrest is located even farther in front of the casters. Eliminating the FrogLegs forks and aluminum depth/angle adjustable footplates would help.

    ZX-1 aside, in my experience, the people who are most efficient at foot pulsion that I have seen use folding chairs. Rigid frames are definitely more efficient for the user who self-propels at the push rims, but I think many of the benefits are lost when foot propulsion is the primary means of getting around.


  9. #29
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    Thanks for responding SCI_OTR, I think you have more experience with foot propulsion than anyone, and I appreciate hearing your concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    In my experience, relatively few adult males require an 18" seat depth on a chair with an 85 degree frame angle if they use their uppers to self-propel. With someone who foot propels, seat depth should be less than the theoretical ideal becuase the feet have freely move under the chair to be efficient. If I had to guess the size of someone who would be able to foot propel this configuration, I'd say they would need to be at least 6'2".
    His height was about 6'1" but the last time they measured him at 6'0". His upper leg length is 20” and lower leg length is 19”.

    I have attached some pictures of him sitting with his feet on the ground and also on footrests in a 2GX. It has an 18" seat depth, 18.75" front seat height and 17.25" rear seat height.

    For seat depth he currently seems good with 18", and has about 3.5" to the back of his knee. For height, I went with the specs our dealer had suggested so they are bit higher, but I figured we could lower them once we have the chair. Overall he says this is comfortable for foot propulsion, but we may be lowering the rear seat height a little, because he tends to slide out front. We think that is also because it is a 98° back angle. The front angle is 70°, which is not comfortable for him -- his legs naturally gravitate back.

    The extra rigidizer bar is positioned so that there will be no room for clamp on wheel locks and possibly not even enough room to easily access the engage lever for D's locks. It is also just 1.5" behind the upholstery which could create leg clearance issues. The effective depth of the bar behind the upholstery is even less because of the bends that give the bar its a "U" shape. The radius for those bends takes up space, and available space is limited on a 16" wide chair.
    I had wanted to leave about 4" of clearance for wheel locks/D's locks, and it sounds like we should lower it by at least 1-2" because they increased the angle. It also sounds to me like we should increase the depth by 1-2".
    I believe the forward stability concern has to do with the fact that the ZRA has relatively high front and rear seat-to-floor heights that are only 1.5" different combined with 5" casters and FrogLegs suspension forks. Even with the 1" longer custom frame, the fork stems are just slightly in front of the upholstery. When the user leans forward, the front upholstery will sag slightly, the bend in the frame gets a little tighter, and the elastomers in the Frog Legs forks compress. The longer footplates on the chair also increase the proportion of the users weight that is in front of that forkstem.
    Do you think it would help to lower the front seat height to 18.5" and rear seat height to 17" and increase the frame length to 19.5" or more?

    Think of the chair as a lever which uses the front casters as the fulcrum. The various forces causing the front of chair to dip downward applied to the longer lever arm can cause the chair to tip. An 80 degree won't help because the footrest is located even farther in front of the casters. Eliminating the FrogLegs forks and aluminum depth/angle adjustable footplates would help.
    I like your description of the lever and fulcrum, and am starting to understand better. I'm really reluctant to give up on the Frog Legs. Everywhere here is rough brick streets, and even in our house the wood planks are uneven (350 years old), and the bumps cause spasticity and seizures. Do you think that switching to only Depth adjustable flip-up's would help?

    ZX-1 aside, in my experience, the people who are most efficient at foot pulsion that I have seen use folding chairs. Rigid frames are definitely more efficient for the user who self-propels at the push rims, but I think many of the benefits are lost when foot propulsion is the primary means of getting around.
    We really want the ZX-1. I have a feeling that it would be used at least 50% of the time, and we already have the 2GX folding chair. He is very strong with one arm, and does pretty good at getting around with that and his good leg.

    Thanks again if you have any time to comment more on this. Maybe I am just trying to hard to fit a square peg into a round hole (as usual for me).
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  10. #30
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    I hate to be a pest, but I really need to respond about our CAD/specs tomorrow. Can anyone give their input about whether lowering the front seat height to 18.5" and rear seat height to 17" and increasing the frame length to 19.5" or more would help with our problem of a forward tippy chair?
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

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