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Thread: Specs for a ZRA2 with flip-up footrests (DU 100082)

  1. #151
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    I'm also working on a review from a "newbies" perspective for ordering a chair like we did with both standard and add-on options and a Designs Unlimited modification internationally. Please see TiLite ZRA Options.

    It's a work-in-progress and most of it is already covered in posts on CC, but often they are under specific topics that are hard to find. If you are bored and want to see what we are up to, by all means take a look.

    This has been a tremendous learning experience, and I find it helps for me to write about it and have a place I can go back to and look at what we have done and why. I hope it might also help some other "newbies".

    You will find a lot of information from all of you, and please accept my excuses if I have not given proper credit. Please also excuse the typos, repeats, etc. I have not gone about this in a very orgainsed way, and wanted to merge a lot of information where I and my husband could easily find it.
    Last edited by elarson; 03-27-2013 at 12:42 PM.
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  2. #152
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    ADI Carbon Fiber Seatbase / Carbon Fiber Folding Sideguards

    We received the ADI Carbon Fiber Seatbase and Carbon Fiber Folding Sideguards, and I think I've managed to install them pretty well. Overall, we are very impressed, and happy with the decision along with the ADI Carbon Fiber Back. They are expensive, but their workmanship is fantastic, and I think they will prove their worth over time.

    The only big task still remaining is the D's Locks, which have now been anodized black and I just need to go get them....

    Here is some information based on someone who is a newbie, but somewhat "handy".

    N.B. I hope nobody minds all of the photo's, but I do think they help other newbies. I am extremely in debt to others who do this, ala chasmengr totoL1 SCI_OTR stephen212 in general, and in this discussion about ADI stuff JeffH totoL1 DaleB in particular. Many thanks guys!

    ADI Carbon Fiber Seatbase

    We ordered an ADI Carbon Fiber Seatbase for a 16" x 18" chair, with mounting hardware. The actual size is 15.5" wide by 18" deep, including the trim, which is 5/16". I think the thickness is 1/8" (0.1250mm). In our case this works well with a Varilite air cushion, but we also have a Supracor Stimulite, and it is a tight squeeze with that.

    This came later because we needed to make a template for the side guards and have them fitted to the seat base (see below). The seat base is really well made and we are very happy with it. All hardware and fasteners are very good. It was well packaged with excellent documentation.

    We were not sure if we would use the mounting hardware, but ordered it to be safe. I had visions of a broken seat pan and only the rigidizer bar to keep from falling through. The seat base was $300 and the mounting hardware was an extra $200. See this thread for information about not using the mounting hardware, and using Velcro only. Overall, I can see why others are doing this, and think it would work well also. I forgot to weigh them before I put them on, but I have been told that the ADI support brackets weigh 12 ounces (3/4 pound or 340 grams).

    We decided to use the mounting hardware and attach Velcro to the support mounts where normally it would be screwed in. This will make it easy to remove for maintenance, or if we do not want the seat base and side guards left on while traveling. Installing the support mounts took about 10 minutes minutes. We may need to add more Velcro later, but so far, it seems to work well with only a small amount of Velcro.

    Note: Added information about the Velcro.

    Later I realised that it was not strong enough with Velcro only on the support mounts. I took off the previous Velcro, and installed new Velcro vertically on the tubes and seat base. It did not take long to install the new Velcro, but getting the adhesive off the old Velcro took quite a lot of work. I used acetone (nail polish remover) and steel wool. It did take off the surface finish on the carbon fiber, but the anodizing on the ADI support mounts held up well. Now it is very firmly in place, and I can tip the chair and the seat base stays on.

    http://adirides.com/seating-systems/seatbases http://www.sportaid.com/adi-carbon-solid-seat-base.html

    ADI Carbon Fiber Folding Sideguards

    These were measured by us to fit the ADI Carbon Fiber Back along with the ADI carbon fiber seat base and the contour of the wheels. It was a bit difficult to make the template, because we did not have a lot of information to go by, especially the side guard stop, because ADI did not provide much information about what is possible.

    Luckily, we had our very kind father/father-in-law visiting, and we made a nice project out of it to figure it out. We wanted to make sure the side guards can fold down with the seat back on and we wanted the side guards only slightly larger than the contour of the wheels for easier transfers. Although we have a quick release seat back, we prefer only to use it when really needed (we only get funding every 7 years).

    They are very well made and appear to be identical without any flaws. All hardware and fasteners are very good too. It was well packaged but the documentation was lacking. It was only a sheet of paper with 3 images and did not give any information about measurements.

    We made the templates out of cardboard and then I scanned them in and made a PDF at 100% for ADI to use when making them. You can see in the photo with all the parts that they definitely used the templates (in white) and they were almost a perfect match, with the exception of the trim. The only thing different is that I had made 2 holes for each side guard stop, but they only did one on the top. I don't think that this is going to be a problem, assuming that one hole is strong enough.

    Note:
    For anyone else making a template, be aware that the trim is about 5/16" and it makes the side guards about 1/4" larger than the template. In our case this was okay, but if you want them to the exact contour of your wheels you will need to factor this in.

    Because the documentation was lacking, I really spent a lot of time measuring and testing before drilling holes. I used electrical tape to mark the placement of the holes, because otherwise there is no way to see it easily. It also removes easily for making changes. Masking tape would probably work just as well. We only had 3/4 inch, but you would be better off with 1" or more.

    The butt hinge is 3" wide by 2" high and has an extra bracket that goes on the outside of the side guards. Because the seat base is only 15.5" wide, including the trim, we wanted to make sure there was enough room for a 16" wide cushion, which meant placing them a bit outside of the seat base. Because the trim is rounded it is difficult to get the measurements right, and I found that dividers (caliper) helped.

    It might be an idea for ADI to provide a template for the hinge using something removable with markings for the holes, so that measuring is not so challenging. The drilling was very easy, but the assembly is more difficult with the extra bracket. This is definitely not a task for people without good hand dexterity to hold all the parts together and get them aligned right to screw in.

    I found that using the electrical tape as a guide made it easier so I could measure from the inside of the trim and easily change the markings, which I did many times. Just in case it helps anyone else to know, we ended up making the hinges for both the seat base and the side guards 11/16" from the inside of the trim, and it's perfect. I left the electrical tape on when drilling, and it also helped to protect the carbon fiber. I could see the difference on the one hole I did not do that with.

    For drilling, I started with a small 3mm drill bit (about 7/64") and then used a larger 7mm drill bit (between 17/64" and 9/32"). Although I thought I had done the drilling quite well, I struggled with a few of the combination screws/spacers to get them to align in the holes with the bracket. The screws need a 3/32 hex wrench. Because some of the washers are not very large, it's good that I opted for the smaller drill bits, because I could then use a round file to tweak the exact hole. This also took off any rough edges from the carbon fiber.

    We made the back of the side guards 1" from the back of the seat base. Originally we had spec'd this out at .5" from the back of the seat base, but because of the trim we needed to increase it (the photo below does not show this, it was one of my many changes). We did that so that we could fold the side guards down with the ADI seat back on. Because we used Velcro to attach the seat base, we can modify the positioning slightly if we decide to put the seat back more upright, which is currently at 92°, the same as the seat back angle.

    Note: Added information about the side guard stops.

    I waited to install the side guard stops because I had some questions for ADI about them.In the template we sent to ADI we had marked 2 holes to attach to the bottom holes in the backrest.I was a bit confused when we got them that they only had one hole in the top, and I was not sure how the screws were intended to be used. I was told:
    "We were able to make the profile of the side guard and the stop very close to the template but the holes on the template were too blurry and did not match a normal measurement i.e. (1” ,1 ½” ,2”) common to a chair back post. So I drilled just one hole to let you drill the second hole in the correct location. The ¼-20 bolt and the riv nut is an “either / or” fastener. The ¼-20 bolt is to be used in an existing through hole. Where the riv nut is to be used where a new hole is required in the frame as an attachment point. A set of rivet nut pliers with a 10/32 bit is needed to install those."
    What I do not understand is why they did not contact us about this in advance. It took approximately 1 month to receive them (they had a delay because raw carbon was on back order), and surely there was enough time to ask questions. I had also sent the CAD drawing with the template, and would have thought they had enough experience of ZRA’s to know what the hole spacing is on the backrest.

    I decided to go ahead and install the side guard stops using only the one hole at the top. With the ¼-20 bolt with a Nyloc nuts I was able to get them very tight, and it looks like having just one hole may be enough. I also decided to lower them, because originally I had spec'd them higher to accomodate 2 fasteners, and that is no longer needed. They also look nicer because the wheel block most of it. They are not at exactly 90° because of the narrower seat base width, but they are at an acceptable angle.

    ADI should really provide more information to customers when ordering custom side guards, especially the fold-down’s which are more integrated. The only information that we received, which we had to ask for, was a rough template for the side guards, but no information about the side guard stops.

    I have found this all to be a big project, and it would have been much better to have information in advance. For example, knowing options for the side guard stops, being told that the seat base would be 15.5″ wide although we specified 16″ (difficult for some cushions), and that the measurements for the side guards did not include the trim.

    I had also thought that ADI would be attaching the folded side guards to the seat base rather than us needing to do all the drilling. That was the reason we waited to have the seat base shipped, because it would have been easier to measure and cheaper on international shipping charges to have it in advance with the other things we ordered at the same time.

    I would have probably done the whole project myself with DragonPlate, at a much lower cost, if I knew it was going to be this much work. Even if you order online, make sure you contact ADI to make sure they understand your template. I had checked with Sportaid after I sent the template to make sure there were not any questions, and they had also not been asked any questions, and also thought ADI would be assembling the side guards to the base.

    Overall, we are very happy with the results. As the care partner who lugs the chair in/out of the car, I'm happy that I don't have to think about losing the side guards, because they are attached. If I need to take the seat base, side guards and cushion off, I can do it in one easy movement, which is great for maintenance.

    We also plan on occasion to use the ADI carbon fiber back, seat base and side guards in the shower. We will be taking an international road-trip and staying in some remote places where we will have only a solar shower. We are going to use our current shower cushion, a Supracor Stimulite Silver Cushion, along with a Supracor Stimulite Lumbar Support. Overall we think this will work (see the photo with the green cushion) so that we don't also need to lug a shower chair around.

    Note:
    Although carbon fiber is not classified as a hazardous material, it's a good idea to wear a mask when drilling, and especially while sanding it.

    http://adirides.com/seating-systems/side-guards http://www.sportaid.com/adi-carbon-f...de-guards.html

    Last edited by elarson; 04-25-2013 at 07:14 PM. Reason: fixed typo's and added information about the side guard stops and Velcro
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  3. #153
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    I think I am finally done with this project. I added a bit more information to my previous post, for any particularly diligent people who want to follow my escapades.

    I decided to change how I did the Velcro on the ADI Carbon Fiber Seatbase (I should have listened to others here) and got the side guard stops sorted out for the Carbon Fiber Folding Sideguards.
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  4. #154
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    I managed to pick-up the D's Locks that I had anodized black -- very purddy.

    This will be my weekend project. I'm a bit nervous about installing them. I seem to do things by the "bash your head against the wall" method, and I'm getting a bit tired of it all.

    If any of you with experience with D's Locks happen to be online over the weekend, that would be great. Even if it's just to lend motivational support.
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    I managed to pick-up the D's Locks that I had anodized black -- very purddy.

    This will be my weekend project. I'm a bit nervous about installing them. I seem to do things by the "bash your head against the wall" method, and I'm getting a bit tired of it all.

    If any of you with experience with D's Locks happen to be online over the weekend, that would be great. Even if it's just to lend motivational support.
    I plan to be around some
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

  6. #156
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    Installing D's Locks

    Thanks Chas. Good to hear you are around. Does that mean you are up for a few stupid questions or feedback? You were a little vague about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by chasmengr View Post
    I plan to be around some
    So far it went really well with installing the Lock Rings with the Moon shaped pieces. I've swapped out to some other wheels and will wait for them to cure before doing the rest.

    I'm trying to get this better documented, and am doing a "D's Locks for Dummies" so that people like me can follow it (I have discussed this with Steve at D's Locks).

    I would like to know if it is possible to use the wheels without the locks engaged. Is this an appropriate statement?:
    You will need to allow the threadlocking adhesive to fully cure before using the D’s Locks, but you can use the wheels without the D’s Locks while they cure.
    You had mentioned in the Installing D's Locks thread, post #40:

    Because some users reported stiff operation and even broken cables, I lubed the cables and pistons with white lithium grease during installation. They always worked very smoothly for me.
    I would like to use Finish Line's DRY Teflon Lube, but I forgot to buy it. Do you think it will work just as well to wait to do this until after they are installed? I would assume this should also be part of general maintenance anyway. If you can think of anything else, that should be documented for maintenance, other than checking that the screws are tight, can you let me know?

    I have taken some more photo's, but I would like to include photo's of other chairs and wheels in the documentation. Is it okay if I include some of the photo's you have posted? I'm also going to ask Grommet and DaleB, because they posted some really good pictures.

    If anyone else is reading this and you want to post a few pictures of your D's Locks, I think it would help others.

    Lastly, would you be up for reviewing the documentation after I finish it?
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    Thanks Chas. Good to hear you are around. Does that mean you are up for a few stupid questions or feedback? You were a little vague about that.
    sure

    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    So far it went really well with installing the Lock Rings with the Moon shaped pieces. I've swapped out to some other wheels and will wait for them to cure before doing the rest.

    I'm trying to get this better documented, and am doing a "D's Locks for Dummies" so that people like me can follow it (I have discussed this with Steve at D's Locks).

    I would like to know if it is possible to use the wheels without the locks engaged.
    yes

    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    Is this an appropriate statement?:You had mentioned in the Installing D's Locks thread, post #40:

    I would like to use Finish Line's DRY Teflon Lube, but I forgot to buy it. Do you think it will work just as well to wait to do this until after they are installed? I would assume this should also be part of general maintenance anyway. If you can think of anything else, that should be documented for maintenance, other than checking that the screws are tight, can you let me know?
    yes. yes. yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    I have taken some more photo's, but I would like to include photo's of other chairs and wheels in the documentation. Is it okay if I include some of the photo's you have posted?
    sure

    Quote Originally Posted by elarson View Post
    Lastly, would you be up for reviewing the documentation after I finish it?
    not soon. You can tell my energy level by the lengths of answers above.
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

  8. #158
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    So sorry to to hear you are going through a bad energy level and fatigue time. I appreciate your answers, but really, they can all wait. Take care of yourself first!

    Hope you get some energy back soon. Thinking of you....
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

  9. #159
    Don't be sorry. In some ways my life is actually better than before MS hit (e.g., much less stress, never rushed, etc.). I am medically retired partially because of frequent, unpredictable recurring fatigue. It's part of my new normal; I'm at peace with it; I've learned to take of myself one day at a time. Cheryl is exceptionally understanding , and because I receive monthly Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI), I'm layoff and fire proof I also receive great healthcare benefits from the VA. Life is good! Different, but good
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

  10. #160
    Senior Member elarson's Avatar
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    Good to hear you are doing well and that life is good. Different is good, especially when you don't have to worry about some of the other stuff. I hope you did not think I was giving you the pity thing, because that was in no way intended. I just don't want to over do it with questions if you are fatigued.

    I think I managed to get the D's Locks installed. I have a few questions, and I think it may make more sense to tag onto an existing thread (this thread is becoming rather unweilding).

    See my soon to be posted post in Installing D's Locks. [update to the link after posting] Installing D's Locks questions #49.

    Quote Originally Posted by chasmengr View Post
    Don't be sorry. In some ways my life is actually better than before MS hit (e.g., much less stress, never rushed, etc.).... Life is good! Different, but good
    Last edited by elarson; 04-29-2013 at 08:30 PM. Reason: updated link after posting
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

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