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Thread: How much does a cantilever frame affect pushing efficiency?

  1. #1

    How much does a cantilever frame affect pushing efficiency?

    Hi,

    How much does a cantilever frame affect pushing efficiency, if anyone can give a good idea of it in words?

  2. #2
    From what I've read, pushing efficiency is slightly reduced compared to a box frame of the same frame material and build quality. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to measure a difference.

    From reading CCC posts by users who have used both TiLite's TR and ZR, the majority prefer the TR. My impression is the TR's frame holds its shape better (floating casters seem to occur more frequently on the ZR, ZRA, and AereoZ).

    Many other factors exist that affect pushing efficiency, such as fully welded versus adjustable, titanium (flexible) versus aluminum (stiff), slightly adjustable versus heavily adjustable, rigid versus folding. Remember, build quality is significant; Icon owners claim the build quality produces high efficiency in this highly adjustable cantilever-type chair. I used a Quickie 2 folder (box frame) which had horrible pushing efficiency compared to my TiLite AeroZ (cantilever).

    So the answer is, it depends.
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

  3. #3
    I wouldn't worry about frame type very much. The way a chair fits and the components used for the wheels will make a bigger impact.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by chasmengr View Post
    From what I've read, pushing efficiency is slightly reduced compared to a box frame of the same frame material and build quality. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to measure a difference.

    From reading CCC posts by users who have used both TiLite's TR and ZR, the majority prefer the TR. My impression is the TR's frame holds its shape better (floating casters seem to occur more frequently on the ZR, ZRA, and AereoZ).

    Many other factors exist that affect pushing efficiency, such as fully welded versus adjustable, titanium (flexible) versus aluminum (stiff), slightly adjustable versus heavily adjustable, rigid versus folding. Remember, build quality is significant; Icon owners claim the build quality produces high efficiency in this highly adjustable cantilever-type chair. I used a Quickie 2 folder (box frame) which had horrible pushing efficiency compared to my TiLite AeroZ (cantilever).

    So the answer is, it depends.
    Floating casters can occur on any high end titanium frame. It is a function of how the frame is aligned when the footrest (or possibly the camber tube) is re-tightened. If the extension tubes aren't inserted evenly, the footrest creates torsion which can have an effect on the rest of the frame.

    While there are "technically" cantilevered qualities to it, the Icon is actually a modular frame.

    The terms "box frame" and "cantilevered frame" (aka "open frame", "L frame" or "mono tube frame") are normally used to describe only rigid frame models.

    In absolutely identical configurations a TR3 will be slightly more efficient than a ZR2. A Terminator Titanium will be more efficient than a Crossfire Titanium. No other comparisons are really possible, and , like rob1's previous questions, the magnitude of any differences would be negligible.

    I guess my question to rob1 is why are you asking these specific types of questions? I'm having a hard time telling if you are posing more-abstract questions intended to provoke deep theoretical discussion or if you are simply trying to choose your next wheelchair.

    Which frame type, model, and configuration would be best suited for your needs has to do more with your level of function, physical dimensions, and other individual factors.
    Last edited by SCI_OTR; 10-20-2012 at 07:02 PM.


  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    In absolutely identical configurations a TR3 will be slightly more efficient than a ZR2. A Terminator Titanium will be more efficient than a Crossfire Titanium. No other comparisons are really possible, and , like rob1's previous questions, the magnitude of any differences would be negligible.
    I'm presently using a fixed-back ZR2, which I am very happy with -- it's a great chair! I don't have any experience with the TR3 and wouldn't be able to offer a meaningful comparison between it and my ZR2 unless I had one that was identically configured. While it stands to reason that the TR3 would be more efficient, I remain, however, skeptical that the difference is anything other than subtle. Maybe if I were bigger and heavier the advantage in performance of a box frame chair might be more obvious, but I weigh only ~150 lbs. Plus I have a carbon fiber back and seat pan. It's a stiff ride. I imagine any difference between the TR3 and ZR2 as being analogous to having your tires filled to 130 psi vs. 135 psi -- a difference, but a very subtle one.

    I think the big difference is in aesthetics and there, for my money, the ZR2 is the sleeker of the two -- much less chair, much more me. I also prefer the wider diameter tubing of the ZR2 because it fills my hands more comfortably when grabbing onto the frame for transfers.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by stephen212 View Post
    I'm presently using a fixed-back ZR2, which I am very happy with -- it's a great chair! I don't have any experience with the TR3 and wouldn't be able to offer a meaningful comparison between it and my ZR2 unless I had one that was identically configured. While it stands to reason that the TR3 would be more efficient, I remain, however, skeptical that the difference is anything other than subtle. Maybe if I were bigger and heavier the advantage in performance of a box frame chair might be more obvious, but I weigh only ~150 lbs. Plus I have a carbon fiber back and seat pan. It's a stiff ride. I imagine any difference between the TR3 and ZR2 as being analogous to having your tires filled to 130 psi vs. 135 psi -- a difference, but a very subtle one.

    I think the big difference is in aesthetics and there, for my money, the ZR2 is the sleeker of the two -- much less chair, much more me. I also prefer the wider diameter tubing of the ZR2 because it fills my hands more comfortably when grabbing onto the frame for transfers.
    Subtle = Negligible

    What about your Hall's versus your ZR2?


  7. #7
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    I think that because there are so many variables it wouldn’t be very meaningful to compare the two frame styles in a way that would show consistent and significantly measurable differences. Even things like temperature and elevation above or below sea level can be variables. I actually believe you could get these same slight differences between two or three chairs of the same type, configuration, and manufacturer. I have seen bearings of the same type and manufacture that I have held in my hand turn differently.

    I would suggest that you pick a quality wheelchair of the design best suited for yourself and configure that chair to be as light and free-rolling as possible. The efficiency of the chair doesn’t occur in a vacuum. The user is significant to this efficiency. The proper chair will give you the maximum leverage specific to your body type, strength, and needs.

  8. #8
    Senior Member sowseng's Avatar
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    My friend's Eclipse also have the caster float problem.
    Life is meaningles, though you create the purpose.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    What about your Hall's versus your ZR2?
    My ZR2 is the smoother more efficient ride.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by stephen212 View Post
    My ZR2 is the smoother more efficient ride.
    Just out of curiosity which is easier to perform a stable wheelie in?


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